Kirill Eremenko: 00:00:00
This is episode number 411, with VP of Strategic Analytics at JPMorgan Chase, Jennifer Cooper.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:00:12
Welcome to the SuperDataScience Podcast. My name is Kirill Eremenko, Data Science Coach and Lifestyle Entrepreneur. Each week, we bring you inspiring people and ideas to help you build your successful career in data science. Thanks for being here today and now let’s make the complex simple.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:00:44
Welcome back to the SuperDataScience Podcast everybody, super pumped to have you back here on the show. Today, we got a very special guest, Jennifer Cooper, joining in from Dallas, Texas. Jennifer is the VP of Strategic Analytics and Auto Risk at JPMorgan Chase & Co.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:01:03
And also, you may have heard of Jennifer, or even interacted with Jennifer before, because she is super active in the data science community. She helps out a lot of people on LinkedIn, people message her for career advice, for mentorships, for understanding how to structure their career. She tries to reply as much as she can. She even catches up with people on Zoom calls, she connects with people on conferences.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:01:30
She’s attended multiple, I think three of the DataScienceGO events that we’ve hosted. She’s taken numerous, in the dozens of courses on data science. She’s also very active on those. Basically, very, very active person in the data science community and somebody who’s always here to help.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:01:48
And finally, we got together to record this podcast, it was a really cool podcast. One of the things that you will learn, one of the big things that you will find out about, definitely something I learned for myself new, is about a new type or a different type of analytics role that I didn’t know much about. It’s called, the broad name for this role is an analytics support function. And that’s something that Jennifer does in her role.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:02:15
So an analytics support function is like business intelligence, but not business intelligence, where you know what you will be doing, where you know what kind of visualizations or charts or insights you need to provide on a day-to-day basis. It’s an ad hoc business intelligence, where people come up to you and say, we need this, we need this. Specifically executives, specifically for board meetings, for decision-making processes, for things like that. A different kind of analytics, where you need different kind of skills.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:02:50
And in this podcast, you’ll understand what this role is, what skills are required. We’ll talk specifically about things like understanding the business and customers, thinking outside the data, the keys to success in an analytics support function, working with executives, how to find an analytics support function type of role, if after this podcast you’re interested in specifically this role, and it interests you. The mix of skillsets and type of work that you need to be doing. What to look out for on the job descriptions and how to spot these types of roles in the market.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:03:25
We’ll be talking also about networking, continuous learning. And then later on in the podcast, we’ll also touch on virtual events. You’ll find out a bit about DataScienceGO Virtual and what to look forward to there. And you’ll get some advice if you’re just starting out your career.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:03:39
So this podcast is going to be super helpful for you, if you are deciding where to take your data science career, and you want to know as many different types of careers that exist in this space. This is going to be a new one, a unique one in 400 plus episodes on this podcast. Well, 200 plus episodes with guests. We haven’t had a guest who’s been in a role like this, who has described the role like this in such detail. So I’m very excited to bring this to you.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:04:06
So if you’re just starting out into the space of data science, or you’re looking where to direct your career into data science, or looking to maybe adjust a little bit, this is a great podcast for you. So that’s what we’ll be talking about. Can’t wait for you to hear this episode. Without further ado, let’s get started and I bring to you, Jennifer Cooper, VP of strategic analytics at JP Morgan Chase & Co.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:04:35
Welcome back to the SuperDataScience podcast. Everybody’s super excited to have you back here on the show. And today, we’ve got a very special guest calling in from Dallas, Texas. Jennifer, how are you today?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:04:44
I’m great, Kirill, thank you. How are you?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:04:49
Very good. Thanks. And it’s awesome to finally have you on the podcast. It feels like we’ve known each other for years.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:04:57
I know. I’m really excited about it. I feel like I’m coming full circle being on here, because it all started with you. At least the data science-
Kirill Eremenko: 00:05:06
No way.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:05:08
My recent data science journey, I feel like started with you. So this is a full circle moment for me.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:05:15
Wow, I didn’t know that. I remember you super excited at the first DataScienceGO, what was it, 2017? That’s where we met.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:05:25
2018 was the first one.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:05:27
The first one you went to was 2018?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:05:28
2018. I listened in on the 2017 one. You had an audio stream available. And so I would listen in from time to time. But the 2018 was my first in-person experience.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:05:41
Got you. So then we caught up there. And since then, your career has, I’m not attributing it to DataScienceGO or to our work in any way. I’ve just observed your career go through the roof. And the things you’ve done in data science has been really exciting.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:06:04
So tell me, when did you start into data science? I don’t think I’ve ever asked you this question.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:06:11
I’ve been doing data analytics now for several years. I guess my data analytics track started back in 2006, working within the auto finance industry, with the exception of two or three different opportunities that I took with companies like McKesson and FedEx.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:06:28
But the data science aspect of my journey, or what I consider more of the more recent data science aspect started in 2016. And so my company was going through some layoffs at the time and was really struggling a little bit. So I took this self-reflective moment and I figured I needed to take a look at my own career and figure out where I wanted to go, just in case something was going to happen. I wanted to be prepared.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:06:55
And I started looking at what was happening in terms of trends, in terms of what was happening with analytics and data, and just all the buzz that was happening around data science. I don’t know, I was just doing I guess a search on the internet. I came across your name, I came across your podcast, and I started listening to it. It all just took off from there.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:07:15
And then I found out about DataScienceGO, 2017, just listening in on that first one. And then I had the opportunity to, I took your Experfy Tableau course. A lot of people don’t know about Experfy. I took your Experfy Tableau course. And I was like, whoa, Kirill is so cool. Data science is so awesome.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:07:37
Everybody I knew was just getting so tired of me talking about data science. They were just like, who is this Kirill guy? And why are you talking so much about SuperDataScience? I started selling people on Experfy and Tableau and I was just like, oh, my gosh, I’m hooked. I’m obsessed. I’m officially obsessed with data science.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:07:55
And so from there, I attended the 2018 DataScienceGO in person. I felt like a groupie. I was like, oh, my gosh, there’s Kirill. I don’t even know if you remember, but I came up to you. The music was going and everybody was excited. It was the first day, there were the first official morning, I came in the day before for the classes or for the workshops.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:08:15
The workshops.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:08:17
But the first time I saw you I was just like, oh, my gosh, I had your Confident Data Skills book. I was just like I got to get this signed by him. Everybody was coming in, and you were just trying to keep everybody coming in the door. And later on, you gave everybody an opportunity to sign, but I didn’t even know if that was going to happen. I said I’m going to get this done right now.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:08:39
I ran up to you and you were just so nice. And you signed the book and I just thought, oh, my gosh, I can’t believe I’m meeting Kirill Eremenko. It was just crazy. It was like being at my first rock concert.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:08:51
Oh, my God. Jennifer, I’m so blushing right now. Thank you very much for the compliments. I feel so uncomfortable. Oh, gosh.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:09:07
Definitely it’s not meant to make you feel that way. I think a lot of people have really appreciated what you’ve done for the data science, for the field of data science. There’s been so much confusion around what it even means. And I love your podcast, let’s make the complex simple. That mantra, I think is so sorely needed. I think that’s why so many people gravitate towards you. At least that’s why I gravitated towards you, just hearing that, okay, I don’t have to be this Einstein. I can just take what I’ve learned in analytics, and I can just use this new coursework and these new relationships and this podcast to just build on what I already know.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:09:48
That’s what I was looking for. I wasn’t looking for this whole new field of data science or to become a full stack data scientist. I just thought I need to know these things. I need to keep these skills up that I have, and develop these new relationships and network through LinkedIn and DataScienceGO. So that I can continue to keep my career on the right trajectory.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:10:12
And so that’s really where I’m at today. It’s really brought me to where I am at this point. I feel very thankful.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:10:20
And what I love about you, Jennifer, is that you never stopped. As you said, you started in 2016. I went onto your LinkedIn, just before the podcast to have a look and the amount of certificates that you have from, a numerous variety of different sources, whether it’s SuperDataScience or Udemy or LinkedIn Learning or DATAcated Academy, and so on, just, boom, boom, boom.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:10:48
And moreover, they’re not data, just old certificates, they’re brand new. I know Kate Strachnyi released her DATAcated Academy course on data visualization best practices, I think in June, July, and you already have that certificate, you’ve already done that course. You’re even wearing her jumper, right now.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:11:10
Go Kate.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:11:10
Go Kate. That’s very impressive. And I’ve met a lot of people over the years who got inspired to get into data science, whether it’s from a book or podcast, or a course or a friend, and did a bit, and then their interest tapered off. Or they found what they were looking for, and they got good at it, and they didn’t feel they need to do more courses.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:11:38
What is different in your case, why did you continue? It’s been four years and you’re still doing courses, you’re still learning, you’re still growing all the time. What keeps you going?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:11:48
Well, it’s just part of my DNA. I’ve always been, when I was younger, I was always pushed by my dad to be, not just do anything halfway, to really throw myself into stuff. I’ve always been extremely goal oriented.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:12:02
And so being that way has caused me or has led me to be the kind of person that every so often I’m very self-reflective, I take a lot of time to look at where I’m at. And just by the very nature of being an analyst, I don’t know if this is a curse or a blessing sometimes, but I’m forced, I look at things in a different way. I look at things on a deeper level.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:12:23
And so I just realized, like I said, for example, back in 2016, that I needed to continuously look at, where am I at from a gap analysis perspective, right? Am I strategically accomplishing what I need to in my career at this point? What do I do, all the different what if scenarios, what if my company lays me off? What do I need to do in terms of continuing to keep my skills up? What strategically makes sense?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:12:48
So since I was doing data and marketing at the same time, I had to think about both of those tracks. So what makes me that way, like I said, it’s just part of who I am.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:12:59
I think the minute you start, you get to the point where you think you don’t need to learn anymore then you’ve got a bigger problem than you probably realize. Because there’s just no way to know it all, Kirill, there’s just no way, especially in our field. It’s just constantly changing, constantly morphing.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:13:16
And even in your specific area, if you want to be a subject matter expert, you’ve got to keep up with everything that’s happening in your field. It could be keeping up with what’s happening with your competitors. It’s so important just to keep up with the news and current events. I have a Google Alert that I have set up for different things. And so I’ll get alerts that come in on our customers, on our partners that I work with at work. I’ll get market research on different topics that I’m interested in.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:13:48
I hope that answers your question. It’s just who I am. But I think for people who may be struggling with it, I think it’s important just to adopt that continuous learning mentality. I’ll talk a little bit about that later when I make my recommendation for a book, but I think sometimes it’s just a matter of developing a different way of thinking, a different mental model for how you approach the world. I’m happy to talk more about that, at some point.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:14:15
Awesome, awesome.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:14:19
Hey, everybody, hope you’re enjoying this amazing episode. And we’ve got a quick announcement and we’ll get straight back to it. And the announcement is that DataScienceGO Virtual number two is in town, it’s happening on October 24th, 25th this year, and you can get your tickets today at datasciencego.com/virtual. The best part, it’s absolutely free.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:14:41
We’ve got some amazing speakers, amazing workshops for you to attend. And of course, the super cool part is that we’ve got networking. There’ll be several 3 minutes speed networking sessions, where for 3 minutes you connect with a random data scientist from another part of the world or maybe from your part of the world. You get to chat for three minutes, if you like each other, if you want to connect, you hit the connect button, you stay in touch.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:15:05
This was by far one of the top features of DataScienceGO Virtual number one, so many people got such great connections, stayed in touch. And some crazy stories came out of that. But we’re going to repeat it and we want you to connect with your fellow data scientists.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:15:19
Once again, it’s absolutely free, register for your ticket today at datasciencego.com/virtual, and I’ll see you there. And now let’s get back to this episode.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:15:29
That’s a cool thing. I guess it comes naturally to some people and others probably need to consciously first develop that habit of learning. And especially in a space like data science, where things are changing all the time, you might think you know everything you need to know, but you just don’t know what’s new, what’s out there, what’s come out and if you’re going to enjoy it or not. So that’ll be cool.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:16:01
Let’s talk a bit about what you do. We chatted just before the podcast, how to frame it the best way, because it’s an interesting specific type of data science. You have experience in risk analytics and marketing and sales before that, and analytics.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:16:21
I think we both agree that the best way to present your expertise in the space of analytics is an analytics support function. How would you describe what an analytics support function is?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:16:37
Yeah, so basically, at a high level, I consider myself kind of a hybrid analyst. So I’ve done a lot of different types of, or I’ve worked in different facets of the organization. Whether it’s been on the front end, working with sales and support, marketing, or operations and risk, for example, in the industry that I’m in.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:16:58
Within my current role, I am responsible for not so much the sales and marketing anymore, but examining our policies as it relates to how we go about approving loans for our customer. I can’t get into a lot of specifics on what I do, but I can tell you that I’m still working from, I still have to use that marketing mindset. And that’s one of the reasons they hired me into this role is because they needed somebody that could get in front of the team, that could get in front of people and talk about things.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:17:33
And so I’ve had a lot of experience working with executives, trying to understand the business problem and then looking at our policies, looking at our programs and our products. Again, this goes back to my past too, and trying to either build the right business case, to create a new program, or to create a new product in the space of auto finance, for example. Or sometimes just like I said, supporting our business executives, with putting together a presentation. Maybe it’s for our board of directors or something.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:18:06
But in terms of that support function that you talk about, that’s really what it is, it’s this wide, it’s this idea of providing this wide breadth of support as needed, ad hoc projects. If I had a dollar for every time, just on the fly, just to pull some data, I need this for this next meeting in two hours, or I need this by the end of the day.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:18:30
Sometimes looking at what we did last month, in terms of sales, sometimes it’s a deep dive into like I said, a specific policy. Is this policy still serving us right, do we still have the right risk reward balance? Do we need to tweak this particular area right here, this particular lever? Maybe it’s how much we’re charging for a loan versus what we’re actually seeing in terms of sales. Are we balancing that risk?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:18:55
And so when we talk about credit risk, and we talk about the area that I work in, even though it’s a very broad area, like I said, credit risk, there are all of these different aspects underneath. And so you need somebody like myself, for example, that has that wide breadth of experience, because you never know when an executive is going to want to just sell a business case. Maybe they need to make a presentation to their board of directors, maybe they need to have a deep dive into a particular program or product, to make sure it’s still working for us.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:19:26
So it covers a wide area of things across sales, marketing, operations, as it relates to supporting that credit risk function.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:19:35
Gartner has the analytic value escalator chart, right? Which is descriptive, diagnostic analytics, predictive and prescriptive, right? Descriptive is what happened, diagnostic, why it happened, predictive, what will happen and prescriptive, what do we need to do to make it happen or make it not happen?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:20:00
So I think you mentioned before the podcast that yours falls mostly into descriptive and diagnostic. Is that right?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:20:06
Correct. That would be fair to say.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:20:08
Awesome. And typically, the way we think about descriptive and diagnostic analytics is a business intelligence function, right? So somebody working in Tableau, Power BI, Qlik Sense, or tools like that, creating reports on a daily, weekly basis. That’s a typical way you imagine a person or a role working in descriptive diagnostic analytics, or business intelligence.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:20:40
What I really like about yours is that something that hasn’t come up on the podcast before is yours is not just a traditional, routine business intelligence, which is a great role to be in. You can develop some amazing tools and charts. There’s always new projects to develop further, of course, but yours is really ad hoc business intelligence and getting these deep dives. You don’t know what’s going to come tomorrow, right? So you have to be on your feet.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:21:09
Give us some insights. You already gave us some insights into what kind of requests you get. Whether it’s a deep dive or a presentation for the board of directors, and you have to put together that for the executives, plus, put a story into it. So there’s some storytelling skills, the translation of analytics insights into layman terms and things like that.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:21:36
But tell us a bit about what is it that you need to constantly be on top of all the time, in order to be successful in your role? What are the top three keys to success in your role? Let’s imagine somebody is listening to this podcast and thinking, wow, this sounds like an interesting role, something that I would enjoy. You don’t have to do those machine learning, very predictive or prescriptive analytics, things like that. It’s also a type of business intelligence.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:22:06
But there’s always this variety, always this hunt for adventure, something, uncertainty, which some people enjoy a lot. What are the keys to success in a role like that?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:22:16
The top thing that comes to mind is definitely business acumen. So you hear a lot of talk around in data science that, there’s a big gap or a big, I guess, I don’t want to use the word concern, but I think there’s a lot of talk around the potential lack of soft skills with freshers, or new people coming into the space. Or people that may be struggling a little bit to advance in their career.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:22:45
I would definitely say getting as comfortable as you can with every aspect of the business. And that may sound silly, because let’s say you’re just a BI guy or BI gal, working in a small startup, and maybe your particular area is healthcare. Well, that’s great. But you’ve got to learn to think, I call it thinking outside the data. Hashtag think outside the data.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:23:10
Nice, I like it.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:23:11
You’ve got to learn to think about, first, frame the problem, but even above that is what is the state of your industry? What are the main problems and challenges that are happening around you and how are those influencing the day-to-day operations in your business?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:23:34
And that’s not something that you learn overnight. That’s taken me years to feel like I’m comfortable talking about. And even when I join a new company, like in my current role, there’s still this steep learning curve, for example, around prime finance. I’ve been doing subprime auto finance for about 14 years. Now, I’ve got to learn all about prime finance.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:23:55
So it’s constantly staying… It goes back to what you said earlier too Kirill, we just never stop learning. You’ve got to understand things at a higher level, you’ve got to just adopt that mentality of, I better keep on top of my industry, I better know my business, I better know my products, my programs.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:24:12
And more importantly at the of the day, even if you’re not a customer facing person, this may be hard to understand. But you need to understand your customers. Why are you in business? What are you really selling? And just understand how your role relates to those larger ideas.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:24:30
Secondly, I would say from an analytics perspective, it’s understanding that you’re not going to have all the answers. So you’re going to have to do a lot of legwork yourself. Executives are very rarely going to tell you exactly what they need. A lot of times, they’re going to come to you and they’re going to say, hey, this is what I think I need to solve, this problem, or this is what I think the question is that I’m trying to answer.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:25:03
But a lot of times, it becomes an iterative process, where you might pull a little bit of data and then when you present that information, you realize, oh, wait, the business question is really this. Right?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:25:17
I know what you’re talking about, it happens.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:25:19
Yes, it happens all the time. So realizing upfront that it’s a very iterative process, it’s going to be frustrating at times. There is no easy button. There’s a lot of joking about that, too, right? And there’s different ways to solve a problem. That further exacerbates, or I guess it could be a blessing, right? So everybody has a different way of approaching a problem.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:25:41
So understanding that you’re not going to have all the answers, that’s the second thing, that it’s okay to ask a lot of questions. And you may have to go outside your comfort zone, you may have to bring in third-party data, you may not be able to get everything you need from that transactional data.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:25:58
I think, thirdly, I think it’s just recognizing again that continuous learning mentality, like we talked about, that it’s okay to admit that you don’t know how to do something. And that you need to have some extra time to go off and learn this skill or make sure that you work with your manager, or whoever it is that you’re supporting, to let them understand, hey, I may not be the best person to do this particular project, but I know who to talk to in the company to get it done.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:26:32
So that also gets into networking a little bit too. But networking isn’t just something you do outside the company, it’s something you do within the company. Learning who does what, and that you really work in a collaborative environment, and understanding how important it is to get your job done, is really critical as well.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:26:48
I hope I answered that. You asked for three things. I didn’t have that ready. But hopefully that answers your question.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:26:53
That’s good, you gave four. So number one is understanding the business and customers and thinking outside the data. I love that hashtag, maybe we should name this episode, thinking outside the data. Number two, you’ll have to do a lot of legwork yourself, it’s an iterative process. Number three, that continuous learning, because don’t expect to do everything when you’re thrown into different questions all the time, into different scenarios, eventually, you will come across something you don’t know how to do. So be prepared and be open about that.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:27:26
You even gave a fourth one, which is networking within the company, especially for big companies like yours, right? So where you’re working, with thousands of employees, right? You need to know there may be somebody who already has the answer. Just by knowing that person, you’d be able to avoid redoing the work.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:27:49
I wanted to ask you, you mentioned time in the third one, continuous learning. How do you know, if somebody comes to you, like an executive or your manager comes to you and says, Jennifer, could you please get us a deep dive into these prime auto financing loans? And what has been happening in the past three months? How long will it take you?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:28:13
How do you know, if it’s not a standard thing you do on a day-to-day basis, how do you know what timeframe to give that person? Because executives like to know the deadline, right? Or they give you a deadline. Like how do you know how long it will take you? How do you estimate that?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:28:28
Well, first of all, from my experience, they always want it immediately. Everything is top priority.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:28:35
Yesterday.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:28:35
They want it yesterday. I always ask and they always laugh, I always ask, when do you need this? I’m telling you, they always give a chuckle. Of course, I need it yesterday, I need it today. I just… Okay.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:28:50
And so my next question to address what you’re saying is, I say, okay, well, what is this going to be used for? Is there a meeting happening next week? Is this something that you’ve got to have for a presentation on Monday, and that’s why it’s so urgent? So drilling down a little bit helps.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:29:07
But what I’ve also discovered, Kirill, and I don’t know if it’s like this at every company, but a lot of times, my boss will have an email that he got a week ago. But then when he finds out on his calendar, he’s got the pop-up or the notification that he’s got the meeting tomorrow. He’s like, oh, crap, I better get this done.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:29:25
And so he’s like, ping Jennifer. Hey, Jennifer, can you get this done in two hours? Sure. No problem. Let me just pull out my easy button. A lot times, that’s just reality, right? It is what it is, but there’s just no easy answer.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:29:50
So what’s been the craziest story you’ve been in where somebody needs it urgently, but you realize that there’s no way of getting this urgently. I need to get this data set, I need this one, I need to go and ask this person. You know it’s going to take you three, four days, maybe a week, but they need it tomorrow, what do you do in those cases? Do you have a story like that?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:30:11
Like I said, almost every time I’ve worked with an executive, it’s not so much at the managerial level, but a lot of times it’s at an executive level. I know, in my former company or my previous company, because it was very, very small, I was working a lot with our C level executives.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:30:29
And the way C level executives think is they… And if I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard this line, they say, oh, this should be something easy for you to throw together. Right? All you have to do is do this and this and this. And I’m like, sure, no problem.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:30:42
So in terms of stories, the company was having problems, and they were looking for which [inaudible 00:30:53] they should go into, and where they should put their sales reps and who they should hire to backfill certain territories. There was a lot that we needed to do, or that I needed to do around understanding what we did in the past.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:31:09
Because we had laid off a bunch of salespeople, and we had the opportunity to bring them back. I said the first thing to do is go back and look at how they performed in their territories when they were here before, right? We need to figure out, were they the right people in those territories? Can we put them back in the same area? Or do we need to have a different person there? Are we even going to get the same business out of that territory?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:31:29
Now, this was two or three years ago, and there’s been a lot of change in our industry since then, in terms of subprime. We’ve seen FICO scores actually improve, people are saving money now, especially with COVID. So anyway, long story short, at that particular moment, it was we just need to get this thing done. We just need to forecast what we need. So we can start hiring people, we need to start bringing them in now.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:31:48
And I said, no, no, no, we need more time to really… because if you’re going to hire, if you’re going to bring on full-time people, especially people that you had with the company before, you don’t want to bring them back and have to lay them off again six months later, right? And again, it’s not being afraid to push back. Because you’re going to have situations where executives in particular, they think very quickly, they think it’s going to be easy, but they want to also hear, they want you to be honest about what you can actually do within that timeframe.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:32:22
So sometimes it’s not telling them, hey, I can’t do this, or I need more time. Sometimes it’s asking them, can I just get… What do you need to be able to make this decision on this aspect of the project by tomorrow? So maybe they don’t need the final answer in the next 24 hours. But it would be nice to know, for this particular state that we do business in, what has our sales been like?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:32:47
And at the time that we did have a sales rep there, for example, what dealers in our case, what dealers were they working with? How many visits were they making to that dealer each week? Did that result in a specific amount of applications coming in?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:33:04
So sometimes just asking them, what do they really need, and then ask and then telling them, I can do this for you in the next 24 hours. This is what I can do for you in the next couple of days. And then it’s just kind of a negotiation at that point.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:33:17
I was just thinking.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:33:17
You have to learn to have those skills. Sometimes they’re just going to push back on you too and say, I’ve got to have this, so you drop everything. And it’s learning to ask those questions. Also say, hey, if I do this for you, I’m going to have to push this to the side.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:33:33
And so that happens a lot, where you just have to readjust your priorities, and they know it. And it’s just something you have to do. There’s been times where I’ve had to work late hours, weekends. It’s not always a glamorous job. There’s a lot of just exploratory data analysis, you don’t even know what you’re going to run into. So you just start pulling data.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:33:53
But a lot of times, executives, I think they’re open to things as long as you come back with a plan. They don’t want to hear I just can’t do it, they want a solution, they want you to say, okay, this is what I can do for you in the next day or so. But I can’t give you this until I know this, right? I have to pull this part of the data before I can get to even answer this first question.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:34:11
Yeah, that’s awesome. And I was just about to ask you, what do you do if you’re inundated with these requests? But you really answered that, right? You got to make it clear to them that I already have these things, do you want me to drop this? And then I can work on your thing.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:34:26
In terms of negotiation, a fantastic book by Chris Voss, Never Split the Difference: Negotiating Like Your Life Depended On It. Outstanding book by an ex-FBI negotiating, crisis negotiation person it’s written in stories. Beautiful book, recommend to, if you haven’t read it and to everybody listening, because negotiation is a very important aspect, not just if you want to get a promotion or a job, but also in these like situations this, right?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:34:53
You got to be able to have empathy for the person and say, I understand you need it, but my hands are tied. I can do it for you. But I have to drop all these other things you asked me before. Because if you don’t do that, if you just say, keep saying, yes, yes, yes all the time, you will burn yourself out, end up working nights and weekends, and probably drop a few balls along the way, and nobody’s going to be happy about that. Neither you, your mental state or the person you’re delivering it for.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:35:21
Definitely, that’s so important. Burnout is real, it does happen. And it’s so important to pace yourself and to have your own mental health through all of this as well.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:35:37
I was also going to say, sometimes it doesn’t require always having to pull new data too. So start to think when you’re starting out in the field and when you’re just learning how to code and pull data, maybe you want to have that practice every day, right? But you also need to get in the habit of thinking, if I do have a deadline, what can I pull off the shelf that’s already available?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:36:00
Saving your code, making sure that you’ve got something to fall, in case you don’t have time to produce a whole new report or a whole new analysis is really important. So just understanding where you’ve got that off the shelf information available to you is also important.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:36:18
Awesome. I think I have maybe one more question on this topic. How does the rest of the business, whether in the current business, or your past business, your past roles, how does the rest of the business see your role? Are they supportive? Or are they, when they see you coming, oh, no, here comes Jennifer again, she’s going to ask for more data?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:36:43
Because you’re obviously working with lots of different functions, you said operations, maybe sales, maybe marketing, and you got to have lots of requests to them, and requests come to you out of the blue. You got to pass on those requests, or ask others for help out of the blue as well, often. So how do they see you? And how do you build those relationships in the right way from the start?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:37:06
That’s a great question. Again, this depends on the level that you’re at within a company, but at my level now, I’m able to delegate some. So a lot of times, my manager, because I have a tendency to want to take it all on myself and do it myself. A lot of times, he’ll remind me, hey, you need to go work with our junior analyst on this, and see if they can help you pull this data. Because they’d rather me be the one actually analyzing the results and putting together the presentation for the executive team.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:37:33
So that’s one thing is being able to work with others, like you said, understanding who to go to. This goes back to what I said earlier, but in my case, having a junior analyst being able to delegate some of that work is really important.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:37:45
How do they see me when I’m coming or when I’m asking for information? I think it depends on how long you’ve been with the company. But in my case, a lot of my background has also been managing projects. I’m the person that once the executives get to know me, they see that I’ve had people actually say she can herd cats, they use that phrase, she can get anything done. It’s incredible how she can just take all this information and pull it together.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:38:10
I don’t know where I get that from. My brother is actually a project… or he started as a project manager, and now he’s a C level executive. So maybe it’s just in our DNA. My dad always used to tell us how to do things. So maybe I got that from him.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:38:21
But I’ve been called bulldog. I’ve been called, like I said the ability to herd cats. So, I think it’s just, they see this person that has this background of being able to come in and know where to go, know how to talk to different people to get that done. Like you said, a lot of it takes finesse, a lot of it takes negotiation. But I think they see that as a good thing. I think they see that this is a person that needs information.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:38:47
And a lot of times, if you’re in an organization where people are talking [inaudible 00:38:53], they probably are coming. They probably already know that this project is important, right? Because especially if it ties back to the organizational objectives, they know your role, hopefully they know what you do. But if they don’t, you take the time to get to know them.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:39:07
And this goes back to the question about how important networking is. It’s so critical to know who the people are that are the stakeholders within your department or organization. For example, in my case, I’m starting to learn the people that are important. I’m still fairly new to the company.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:39:25
But as I learn and as I run into these people in different meetings, this person is the kind of person I need to go to if I have a question about this. This is the kind of person I need to go to if I have an issue with this particular problem. So, get to know those people early on in the process.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:39:41
When you have meetings, what I do is I look to see who’s been invited, I look them up on LinkedIn, I look them up on LinkedIn. Even in an internal meeting situation at work, I look them up. A lot of times, you do that when you’re interviewing for a job, right? You want to get to know who you’re going to be talking to.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:39:55
I do that within my company. Before I go to a meeting, I try to understand who’s there. Is this person a decision-maker? Are they an executive director? Or are they more of my peer?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:40:07
And I think also it’s important, if you know you’re going to be working on a project together with someone, so that they know you’re coming, it goes back to what you said, you start to have those discussions with people. Set up a 15 minute call with somebody, set up a 15 minute call just to get to know someone. I call them meet and greets. Set up a time to talk to this person and get to know them and talk about the project.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:40:30
I’m really excited, this veers off a little bit. But this next month, I’ll be doing my first hackathon. I’ve judged one before, but I’ve never actually participated in one company. Our company is sponsoring. It’s called Riskathon 2.0. And I’m really excited because it’s across the company.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:40:47
So last year, they had our India folks doing it, because we have a large data and analytics presence in India. But this year, they’re bringing it States side. So a lot of people in the US are going to be allowed to participate.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:41:02
So I’ve already decided, now that I know who’s on my team, I’ve started setting up meetings with everybody. I don’t wait, that’s just the way I’m wired. I don’t wait for someone to come to me. So if you want to get ahead in an organization, this is some other advice for folks on the call. Don’t wait for people to tell you what to do. If you see an opportunity, let’s say you have a project and you’re not sure where to get the data, or who to talk to, don’t be afraid to ask somebody. Don’t be afraid to network within the organization to find out who does what. Ask questions, make phone calls, do research, get on your company portal, find out.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:41:41
I’m lucky, I’ve work for a huge company, we have great information available at our fingertips. I can go onto my company portal, and I can look up someone’s name. It even has their LinkedIn bio, it has everything there that I want to know about that person. So there’s really no excuse these day. A lot of companies have that kind of information. If you’re in a small company, it’s even easier.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:41:58
I just veered off track a little bit. But I’m excited about that, because that’s going to give me an opportunity to also meet other people. And to get to learn more about the company and some of the problems and use cases that we have that our company is facing. They’re using this hackathon as an opportunity to get people engaged, and to use data science and some of these other things to potentially tackle problems that we don’t necessarily get to do on a day-to-day basis, because we’re all busy with our jobs.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:42:24
I’m excited about that, another really good way to meet people and learn more about the company. Volunteer in your company. Don’t be afraid, jump in.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:42:34
That was awesome. Sounds like you really enjoy what you’re doing. So I’m very happy for you. That’s very cool.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:42:42
For somebody who’s listening to this, and is super ignited and wants to also be in a role like yours, because it does sound very exciting, this might be a tough question, but where do you find them? This is not your standard data science, data scientist role or your standard business intelligence role that you see advertised on SEEK or Indeed or Glassdoor wherever. How would one go about finding these roles, which I think are quite unique to come across?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:43:16
Well, I found this role, this isn’t always the way people are finding jobs these days is, I found the role through I think LinkedIn, LinkedIn Careers, the jobs on LinkedIn. I tried to be very strategic in my job search. So not just sending a resume to everybody, and not just applying to every job I see. But really thinking about the type of job that I wanted to do.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:43:43
I think it’s reading the job description, and really understanding, what it is that you bring to the table. But if you’re a hiring manager, I think you may even ask also from say a hiring manager perspective, how do you find these people?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:43:56
Again, you can’t underestimate the power of LinkedIn. I think these days, it’s all about networking. And that’s not just a catchphrase, I think it’s like I said, it goes into how do you talk to people? Unfortunately, I get a lot of messages on LinkedIn from people that are looking for jobs, that their very first message to me is, I need a job, how can you help me find a job? I’m like, I don’t know you. I don’t even know the first thing to say how I can help you.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:44:24
I think it’s understanding that you have to know yourself first, you have to know what it is you bring to the table. And like I said, don’t just approach every relationship as this person can do something for me. What can I do for this person? What can I do for this company? Understanding the company’s needs and their problems and challenges before you even get to the table and before you even contact someone to network with them is really, really important.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:44:51
And I just think being creative. It’s really, really important to be creative these days. Don’t just look in the normal places. Go to meetups, talk to people that do what it is that you want to do. Ask them for advice on what it is you should be reading, what kind of projects you should be working on.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:45:16
Again, I hope that gets to what you were looking for. But I think there’s a lot of challenges these days, because especially with COVID, people working from home. My entire interview process for this job was over Zoom. None of it was in person.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:45:32
I was talking to multiple companies. I actually got to a multiple offer situation. In this case, they didn’t ask me to do any kind of test. But another company, it was a very, very large healthcare system in Texas, asked me to do a test. It was basically a project, I used R.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:45:50
So you just have to learn to be flexible, and you have to adjust to what the current environment is. It’s just a different job environment than it was several years ago.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:45:59
Yeah, yeah. Got you. Thank you. That’s good advice. But what I was actually after is, what are the telltale signs overall like this, right? So if I’m reading a job description, how do I know that it will be a fun and diverse role with a lot of uncertainty? Basically, it will be an analytics support function. What are the telltale signs of an analytics support function role?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:46:26
Because they’re not labeled analytics support function. How do you not confuse it with just… Not just, but how do you not confuse it with a business intelligence role where you just build dashboards? Which is a great role, but not exactly what you’re doing, this is different. Or how do you not confuse it with a data scientist role? What is a giveaway that you can tell from the job description, that’s the role that Jennifer is doing?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:46:50
I think, in my case, there were not a lot of technical skills listed. It was more around, and again, this is interesting for the area that I work in, because I work within an auto risk area. So it’s a very broad function. But because of the way it was worded, and it required me doing presentations, it talked a lot about presentations and supporting our partners. Our partners in the traditional sense, you think of someone going into a dealership and buying a car. Maybe Kirill needs a new car.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:47:21
The partners that we’re working with, we’re actually private labeling an auto finance program for them. So Aston Martin, Maserati, McLaren, Jaguar, Land Rover, they’re coming to us and say we need Chase to provide our financing platform.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:47:35
So when I saw a lot of that in the job description, I knew immediately, first of all, from my sales and marketing background, there was going to be a unique opportunity for me. And because I had that auto finance background, a very broad auto finance background, across sales, marketing, operations, risk, et cetera, that I had that broad understanding.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:47:54
But it’s going to be difficult unless you’ve been working for a long time and you’ve gotten used to reading job descriptions. You start to learn, based on your experience, when you see a job description, you start to learn what it is that job is really going to entail.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:48:12
And it’s interesting, you should actually ask this at this point in time, because I had my first what we call a check-in with my manager a couple of weeks ago. I asked him, so how am I doing so far? Is this what you expected? And he asked me too, is this what you expected? And I said, first of all, he said, the reason I hired you is because I needed somebody to be able to get in front of executives. He said, I know you had the chops, that didn’t worry me. I needed somebody that can get in front of executives and actually had the business acumen.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:48:40
That’s super, super important. So you’re not going to always see soft skills, you’re not going to see a big, blaring, neon sign that says that a person needs soft skills for this role. But if you don’t see a lot of technical skills listed, that’s probably a good indicator that you need to have this broader spectrum of skills, some soft skills, right?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:48:58
But when he asked me about whether or not the role was what I thought it would be, I said, yeah, this is exactly what I thought it would be. It’s a broader role than just being a BI or an analyst type of a person. You’ll probably only be doing about, maybe 40% of your time will be pulling data. The other 60% is going to be working with executives, understanding our policy, building business case, doing deep dives into data when needed to support that policy, right? Not necessarily being the lead on that project.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:49:29
So, the job descriptions, a lot of times, I don’t even trust job descriptions. One of the first things I ask somebody if I get a call from a recruiter, is please tell me what the day-to-day of this role really looks like. That should be the first question in an interview situation is what does the day-to-day really look like for this role? Talk me through a typical day. If you don’t know, can I go talk to somebody on the team who’s been doing it for about six months? I’d like to understand what’s really involved.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:49:57
And usually they’re quite happy to answer that question. Because they want someone in that role. And then I always ask what that person on data is going to look like. Is there going to be a big learning curve? What can I bring to the table to start the job? Is it going to be a lot of soft skills? Am I going to get to pull data? Or am I going to be sitting in a desk, building charts all day or building presentations?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:50:18
And so it’s just really important to ask those things, because the job description is not going to tell you everything.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:50:23
Awesome. Thank you. Solid advice, love it. Look out for the amount, probably the easiest first step is look out for the amount of technical skills listed on the job description. If there isn’t a lot, then you might be looking at an analytics support function role. That’s very good. Thank you very much.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:50:45
On that note, let’s shift gears a little bit and talk about DataScienceGO. One of the events that… the event that we run, there’s, of course, lots of other data science events out there. We’ve got DataScienceGO Virtual number two coming up, 24th, 25th October.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:51:02
I believe you attended, so you’ve attended two live DataScienceGOs, 2018, 2019, and you’ve attended DataScienceGO Virtual, the first one this year. How was your experience at DataScienceGO Virtual?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:51:14
Oh, my gosh, first of all, I had very high expectations, because I’ve been to two in-person ones. And they were just phenomenal. You know how I feel about it. I’ve told you and you’ve asked me questions about my experience before. I’m happy to go into that in more detail. But I’d just say high expectations.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:51:29
But I also knew with COVID, and with everybody having to get creative with technology, that this was probably going to be… obviously, your first time out, I thought it’s going to be interesting to see how Kirill does this, because I know how you are, just from knowing you from afar. You have very high expectations of yourself. You don’t do anything… I was so curious how this was going to be pulled off. I was like, this is going to be interesting.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:51:52
And from the minute I turned it on, I thought he did it. He did it, there was this energy. And I think for those people that are listening that were at the 2018 DSGO, and then were at the 2019, you know there was a different format, right? And I know that you were testing that out, trying to see, especially as more people were coming, you wanted to make sure that you were appealing to everybody. And that’s a hard job to do.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:52:19
That first DSGO 2018 there was high, high energy, I told you earlier, to a rock concert, and I saw you as, here’s the head rock guy right here. I’m just a groupie, I’m just here to carry his bags or whatever. And then 2019, it was different. But it was definitely more, it was larger. So it was more of an emphasis on just getting everybody in and out of the different sessions, making sure everybody had the right… You were balancing everything all the different people that were attending and making sure that you had the right speakers. And it was a ton of good… it was a different networking event than the first one.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:53:04
So coming back to virtual, I thought, okay, this is just really going to be interesting. Then as the thing started, you had the music, you had the energy, and then when you came out and spoke, I thought this is really cool. He’s pulling it off.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:53:20
And then you had on the side, you had a chat going, and everybody was just getting so pumped up. I’m talking the chat on the side, you had the big screen, then you had the chat on the side. Everybody was just getting so excited. We were building off of each other’s experience. People on there had that live experience, and some people didn’t. So I just thought it was phenomenal.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:53:44
Again, I had very, very high expectations. I’m one of those people, I’m going to tell you if I don’t like something. I really don’t have a filter. It’s something I have to work on. But I just loved it.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:53:56
Awesome. That’s really cool. What did you think of the… and thank you. First, I want to say, you say he pulled it off, he pulled it off, I am honored to be working for really great team, the DataScienceGO team who are able to put these together. So of course, they’re the ones who pulled it off. I’m just really happy to be there.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:54:14
What did you think of the networking sessions? Because that was a feature we were very excited to bring to the community, the speed networking. What did you think of that?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:54:27
I thought it was cool. I found myself wishing I had more time with a few people. But what was really neat about it, and it was hard to keep up with everybody. But what I found is a lot of people were doing the networking, and then they were taking the person’s name down and then I’d have LinkedIn time on my other screen. I would be getting all these pings, all these connection requests from people I spoke with. So people were using it the same time.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:54:54
And that’s what’s really cool about this new format, right? So if we were at the live event, you’d have your phone, you’d have your little QR code, your LinkedIn QR code, and you’d walk around and get to know people and you’d scan in their information. But this way, it was just ping, ping, ping, all these people were just… The minute you networked with somebody, I was just amazed at how quickly people were getting enthusiastic and trying to form those relationships. They wanted to continue that after the event, that was evident them doing that. I thought that was super cool.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:55:25
That’s fantastic. I also met quite a few interesting people from random places on Earth. And that was very inspiring as well. What was your favorite talk and workshop?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:55:37
I really liked Michelle… I’m probably going to botch her last… Gaudette?
Kirill Eremenko: 00:55:42
Gaudette.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:55:43
She did the Tableau. Gaudette. And of course, because I like the hands-on stuff, I’m really into… That’s why I like the workshops that we have the day before the live events, because you get that opportunity, very hands-on and you do actual walkthroughs of coding and Tableau in all of your workshops.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:56:04
The other one, I just love when Hadelin talks about deep learning or Python. He’s so passionate about his topic, it’s all the difference when you have a speaker that is really passionate about what they’re speaking about. I loved hearing… he took a deep dive, literally into deep learning, no pun intended there. He really talked about his topic. And so that was really, really interesting. He went from that to Tableau. So it was a very wide range.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:56:35
I didn’t get to participate as much the second day. But I tried to do some, like I said, the networking. I loved the first night, we had a happy hour, we had all these different happy hour networking, and they get on one of those. And Monica Kay Royal was on there. There were several people that I hadn’t met at all before, or even had a chance at the speed networking. So that was fun.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:56:56
So we had Zoom, we had the Zoom format, with several people on the screen, and there was a moderator person that would talk through different subjects. But at one point, he said, well, gosh, what do you guys want to talk about? And so it just went off in all these different directions, everything from career advice. I know I spent a few minutes talking about my experience, giving some advice to freshers on career stuff and projects and all that stuff.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:57:21
But anyway, it was just cool. Because it’s something like I said, I think it’s tough to pull off. Especially when you’ve had two events as a benchmark, people are probably looking to those of us that had attended were interested in how you were going to do that. I just thought it was phenomenal. I’m looking forward to the next one coming up. I think it’s going to be even better.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:57:39
Awesome, you’re coming on the 24th of October?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:57:41
Yeah, definitely.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:57:44
Fantastic. Awesome. We’ll see you there. What your advice to someone listening to this podcast who’s on the fence? I don’t know, it’s an investment. For me it’s become even easier with COVID. There’s a lot of unfortunate things, of course, about COVID. But with these virtual events, you do it from home, you attend from home, it’s a free event. You don’t have to pay anything, you don’t have to go anywhere, you just walk up, you switch your computer on.
Kirill Eremenko: 00:58:09
And let’s say someone is listening to the podcast, like I don’t know if… it’s quite a lot of time. I got to invest time, a whole weekend, not a whole weekend, two half days on the weekend, invest into this. So they have doubts about attending a virtual data science event. What would your advice to them be?
Jennifer Cooper: 00:58:27
First of all, I would say everybody’s having to adjust to this new period in life that we’re in. And one of the things you have to do is, like I said earlier is learn to be flexible. If you’re going to, in this field, there’s a lot of ways to learn. So you’ve got podcasts, you’ve got conferences, you’ve got networking and building projects, but virtual conferences, that’s just another avenue to do this, right? You don’t have to do it all weekend. Like you said, I couldn’t participate as much the second day. I’m sad I couldn’t do that. But I had some other personal obligations at that time.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:59:04
You can do an hour or two here, you can do the networking, you can dip your feet in the first day and see what you think about it. Maybe the first day, you’re not able to really participate as much as the second day you’re able to. I think it depends on what a person’s schedule is.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:59:16
But I just don’t think there’s any harm in trying. There’s really no excuse not, on a weekend especially, unless you’ve got something already going. But in COVID or during this time, there’s really not a lot that you can do. So if you’re going to be home, I spend my time on the weekends learning as much as I can. I really try to dedicate as much time as I can to learning, whether it’s continuing to work on certain programming languages or whatever I’ve got that’s on my list of things that I’m currently working on, the certificates that you talked about. It’s just another opportunity to learn.
Jennifer Cooper: 00:59:49
And if you’re on the fence, reach out to me, reach out to somebody who’s been there before. You can go onto the website. I’ve been to the DSU website recently, when I signed up for the virtual conference. There’s a list of former speakers. Look at those people, talk to people that have been there. There’s a lot of people in the data science community, they’re very ready to share their experiences. Ask them what they thought about the virtual conference.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:00:16
Like I said, ping me if you’re on the fence, and I’m happy to talk about it in more detail.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:00:20
Awesome, thank you. Thank you, Jennifer, really appreciate it. And we’re aiming for, I think 4,000 to 5,000 people this time, so it’ll be fun to see everyone.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:00:30
Wow.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:00:33
Thank you. And you mentioned a bit about helping beginners and people coming to you with questions, you helping other people. You even wrote an article recently about how to get into data science. Let’s talk about that for a little bit.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:00:52
What questions do you get from beginners who are getting into data science? And what advice do you normally give? Especially what you were able to summarize in that article, I think that was very valuable.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:01:07
Oh, thank you very much. The first thing I always get from a programming perspective is R versus Python, what do I learn? I always say, don’t think of it as either, or. Again, going back to my hashtag think outside the data, these are all tools.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:01:25
I always compare R and Python, or whether it’s Tableau or Power BI, these are tools in your toolbox. And if I’m going to build something at home, I want to build a piece of furniture, sometimes I’m going to need a flathead screwdriver and sometimes I’m going to need a Phillips head screwdriver. You’re going to need different tools for the job. I tell people immediately, get out of the mindset of thinking R versus Python.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:01:49
The second thing I do is I say, what are your strengths and weaknesses? Take an inventory of what it is that you think that you’re good at, and what you need to work on. And look at job descriptions, like we talked about earlier. So let’s say you’re new to the area, let’s say you’re just getting into data science, and you don’t really know where to start. Look at some job descriptions out there that interest you. Find out what it is that they’re looking for.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:02:16
Take a personal [inaudible 01:02:17] of what your experience is, what transferable skills do you have? Maybe you’ve got some great people skills, maybe you’ve done presentations. Sales, like I was in my past, maybe you don’t need to work as much on those things. So
me programming you need to work on, maybe visualization skills, maybe it’s like we talked about, getting on that scale, that Gartner scale.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:02:38
Take some machine learning courses, talk to people who have done this before. Start networking with people that are in the space, that are doing the things that you do, and learn from them.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:02:53
I’m a big proponent of MOOCs. I’m a big proponent of the type that you offer at SuperDataScience. These are things you can take quickly on the go, on the fly, at your own pace. They’re affordable and they’re flexible. I did a lot of this when I was looking for a new job. I looked at my own skillset. You talked about all those recent certifications. I’ve thought about what is it that I need to be thinking about when I’m interviewing?
Jennifer Cooper: 01:03:16
Okay, well, for my current job, I knew I was going to have to learn SaaS again. I’d taken SaaS, I’d used SaaS in my past, but SaaS is out of love these days. Most people are talking about R and Python, so I thought I’d better brush up on my skills. So it’s understanding for your particular moment in time what it is you need to be focused, always thinking in the future, what is it that I need to do to continue to grow my skills and my career?
Jennifer Cooper: 01:03:41
But then there’s also the whole, I talked to that interview process for resume, and making sure that you have a strong LinkedIn profile. I have people coming up to me a lot that say, who should I talk to about my… Will you review my resume for me? I’m always happy to review people’s resumes. I do that as much as I can.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:04:05
But one of the things, I always work with a professional resume writer, it’s worth every single penny if you can find a good person to do it. And I know a couple of people, so I’m happy to refer those folks if they come to me and they ping me after this podcast. Always have a professionally done picture, a professionally done photo will go just very, very far, in terms of attracting the right people to your profile.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:04:26
And projects, making sure that you’re constantly… Don’t just take courses, don’t just read, don’t just listen to podcasts, actually do projects. And I don’t have to tell you this, Kirill, it’s important to have a good GitHub, to have at least a Tableau public if you’re doing visualization, right? You need to have something out there that you can refer people to.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:04:48
Amazing. Thank you. That’s a great variety of advice for different aspects and especially I like the deciding on what it is that you want to be doing in data science. I think that’s very important. A lot of people just want to do data science. But I think you wrote in your article, which we’ll definitely include in the show notes, data science is extremely broad. There’s so many different areas of data science you could get into that… You might get into one and hate it and get into another and you love it.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:05:18
So it’s very important to, I like how you said, understand what are your strengths, and then tailor your career towards that. So that’s definitely something people should be doing.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:05:32
What would you say, somebody who’s just starting out, has no idea about what areas of data science even exist. Where can they find out more about that?
Jennifer Cooper: 01:05:47
[inaudible 01:05:47] again, I think at a very, very basic fundamental level, there’s still a lot of confusion around what data science really is. There’s so many different areas of data science. Some people and you may disagree, and there may be people that listen to this that may disagree. But the way I learned about it, Kirill, is I listened to people like you, I listened to your podcast, I read. I just picked up whatever article I could find on data science.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:06:16
I also found a great podcast, aside from the one that you do, there’s a gentleman named Tyler Renelle, called Machine Learning Guide. I learned a lot from his podcast too, just in terms of the overall, what is data science, all the different aspects, from supervised learning to unsupervised learning, to machine learning and AI. He breaks it down. He does a wonderful job throughout his podcast series of going through all of that.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:06:44
So in my opinion, I think the best place to start is to talk to people, like I said, who are doing it, read articles, find trusted resources, and listen to people like you who have been doing this for a long, long time. You’ve got people that are guests on your podcast that have been doing this for a while. And there are other podcasts, like I said too, like Tyler’s podcast that really helped me.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:07:06
So the way I break it down is, I look at data science, just to say, I look at it as a very broad continuum of disciplines that fall underneath a data science umbrella. Yes, there’s this unicorn or purple squirrel, if you will, that has the full tech stack, right? Of all the different, all of these things that fall into this continuum. Maybe there’s a mythical individual out there that has all of these different skills, right? They can program in Java, they know Hadoop, they know Spark, they know TensorFlow, they know Keras, they know Python, they know R, they know C. I guess there’s someone like that out there. I’ve never met them though.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:07:45
I think it’s just understanding, you can go to Wikipedia. I’ve always been told not to really trust Wikipedia too much. But read the available out there. There’s a lot of different subjects under that data science umbrella.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:08:04
I think of it as data engineering, data analytics, data visualization, machine learning, and then you’ve got all these different disciplines that fall on top of that. I think one of the people on LinkedIn, they asked me a question about actuarial science, excuse me. That’s out of my area of expertise. But actuarial science is certainly, I would think each of these base disciplines would certainly draw off of.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:08:28
So having that mathematics, having that statistics, there’s all these things that fall on top of that, and are also subdomains. So all of these things work together, there’s no one particular area that you can say, oh, well, this is what a data scientist does. It’s a very broad umbrella. I almost wish the term and go away. I really hope at some point, we get back to the brass tacks of, this is what I do, I analyze data. What I tell people is I use data to help executives make better decisions and drive sales. That’s not difficult, right?
Jennifer Cooper: 01:09:01
But you read a job description about a data scientist, and it looks like they’re asking for Einstein and Galileo, Newton all thrown into one. I don’t think that’s what companies are looking for. They may put that in the job description, but I think there’s a lot of confusion about it. I hope that people that are starting in the space will talk to people who have already done this stuff, and will just ask them poignant questions about what is it that you actually do?
Jennifer Cooper: 01:09:29
I do see it sometimes on LinkedIn, what is it that you actually do on a day-to-day basis? I actually answered someone’s email this week about that. I just think learning from people that are doing it is the best way to start out.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:09:40
Love it. It almost feels like, actually, it feels like a person starting out should spend I don’t know, one to three months not doing any actions at all, in terms of looking for jobs, or in terms of directing their career in a certain way. But just listen, read, research about the area and get enough information first, what is available, and then only start. Okay, well, I think this is the right path for me. So not rushing is a good advice.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:10:13
I think some people feel really pressured right now in this current job climate, if you’re out of a job, there are a lot of people out there that want to help. So you may feel pressure to make some of these decisions very quickly. That’s why I said talk to people, reach out to the data science community, people will help you. I think that’s the best thing to say.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:10:29
Absolutely, you can reach out to people like Jennifer, for sure.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:10:35
Yeah, definitely. I’m happy to help.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:10:36
Awesome. Okay, Jennifer. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been a pleasure and a very, very exciting conversation. I loved learning about this analytics support function. Before you go, where can our listeners connect with you? What’s the best places to get in touch and maybe ask you some follow-up questions or just follow the things that you do?
Jennifer Cooper: 01:10:56
Definitely LinkedIn, we can start there. I’ve also been scheduling Zoom calls with people from time to time. I try to [inaudible 01:11:03] I can, it just depends on my work schedule. But I’m happy to pick another format of discussion or community, LinkedIn, ends up going somewhere else after that.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:11:13
Awesome, thank you. I love that about you, that you just want to help people all the time. I just hope you have enough free time for yourself as well.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:11:22
I try.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:11:23
Awesome. Well, one final question. And that’s the book, what book would you like to recommend to our listeners to help them in their careers?
Jennifer Cooper: 01:11:35
I had a book that I had to read back in my MBA program. It’s called the Fifth Discipline. It’s an older book by a gentleman by the name of Peter Senge. And I can share that with you, for you to put your show notes. It gets into this idea of what’s called a learning organization, and more importantly, it gets into systems thinking, and what I talked to briefly earlier, which is mental models, and how we look at the world and how we process information through our biases, or through different experiences that we had.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:12:05
It ties to another book. So I have to mention them together. There’s a third version called The Model Thinker, by Scott Page. And I’ll share both. What Scott does is he goes more into the modern aspects of it, as it relates to data and how we look at different models and mathematics to examine complex business problems. I’ll share both of those with you.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:12:30
Awesome, got you. So the Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge and The Model Thinker by Scott Page, we’ll put those on the show notes. Haven’t heard of those books before. But thank you for the recommendation. We’ll definitely include them in the show notes.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:12:43
Jennifer, thank you so much. It’s been a long time coming. I’m really excited that you came on to this podcast. And as you said, closed the loop. And thank you for sharing all the insights. I look forward to seeing you at DataScienceGO Virtual.
Jennifer Cooper: 01:12:57
Thank you, Kirill. It’s been a pleasure, I really appreciate it.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:13:04
So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this podcast and enjoyed getting to know Jennifer. If you’d like to connect, make sure to hit her up on LinkedIn, we’ll of course include the URL in the show notes.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:13:18
My favorite part of this podcast was getting to know about this analytics support function. I think it’s a really cool role, which isn’t talked much about, it’s not the hardcore data science where you code and create predictive models and you’re all in the code, in the modeling, in the building of evaluation models. At the same time, it’s also not a pure business intelligence role.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:13:44
Because in those roles, you expect more predictability in terms of what you’re going to be doing. In terms of the analytics, the insights that you need to deliver. This is kind of an ad hoc business intelligence, fast paced, dynamic, uncertain, but also fun in that way, type of role, where you need to work a lot with people.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:14:07
And I love what Jennifer said that the way to spot these in terms of job descriptions is if you can tell that about 40% or less than half your time is going to be technical and more than half your time is going to be working with people, working with reports, presentation skills, networking, so on, then you have a chance that this is that type of role. So if you enjoyed that, that’s one of the ways to find these roles.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:14:31
And as usual, you can find the show notes with more information about the things we spoke about at www.superdatascience.com/411. That’s www.superdatascience.com/411. There, you will find the transcript for this episode, plus any materials mentioned in the show, books, the URL to Jennifer’s LinkedIn and things like that. So check it out.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:14:52
And finally, if you know somebody who is starting out into the space of data science and this type of role sounds like it would suit their personality, they love working with people, they have technical skills, but they don’t want to focus too heavily on the technical skills, they want to be able to support people, they want to be able to create interesting insights and they also want that variety in their work, unpredictability, then send them this episode. This might be the perfect role for them. And this is the place for them to find out more about it, about the analytics support function. Very easy to share it, just send them a link, www.superdatascience.com/411.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:15:30
And finally, finally, make sure to come to DataScienceGO Virtual, if you are available on the 24th, 25th October, very soon. It’s probably the coming weekend when you’re hearing this podcast or when this podcast goes live. It’s the coming weekend. We’d love to see you there. The general admission tickets are free. Just go to datasciencego.com/virtual and register for your ticket there today. We’ll see you on Saturday, Sunday.
Kirill Eremenko: 01:16:02
It’s going to be a lot of fun. There’ll be networking, great talks, great speakers, great workshops. So come, join in and let’s learn together. I look forward to seeing you DataScienceGO Virtual and until next time, happy analyzing.