SDS 305: Using Data Visualization Tools

Kirill: Welcome to the SuperDataScience podcast. My name is Kirill Eremenko, Data Science Coach and Lifestyle Entrepreneur. And each week we bring you inspiring people and ideas to help you build your successful career in data science. Thanks for being here today. And now let’s make the complex simple.

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Kirill: Welcome back to the SuperDataScience podcast ladies and gentlemen, super pumped to have you on today’s episode. The guest we had today is Jean-Pierre Labuschagne, we just finished our call a few hours prior and it was quite an adventure. So you will hear the story of Jean-Pierre who was born in South Africa, started his career there worked at Deloitte for many years then made the move into the industry, moved to the Netherlands to Europe, where he has been for the past three years and where he’s driving massive value with the power of analytics and visual analytics to the companies that he works for. A very interesting story indeed of his career path. In this podcast, you will learn a little bit about South Africa because we both have some memories of the place and how we… we connected on that level. So it’s really cool chatting about South Africa, I love South Africa. Then we talked a bit about Jean-Pierre’s professional experience and how he progressed through his career all the way from graduating from university or even before like how he got passionate about IT and programming and computers, and then how he graduate from university and what he went through in his career.

Kirill: We talked a bit about Deloitte too if you’re interested in consulting this will be a cool podcast for you to learn a bit about the culture. It’s one of the big four consulting firms and a bit about the types of work that these companies undertake. And then we dive into data visualization. So Jean-Pierre started off as a student in our visualization courses specifically on the Tableau courses several years ago back in 2017, and then he gradually progressed through these courses learned, grew his career, grew his skills and knowledge and now he’s teaching these same courses and so Jean-Pierre helped us revamp the Tableau 10 into the Tableau 2018 courses. If you’ve taken those courses, you will find some additional sections from him at the end of the courses he’s done YouTube videos. One of his YouTube videos about Tableau has over 100,000 views. And this month, we’ve got a very cool announcement in partnership with SuperDataScience, Jean-Pierre is launching not one but two courses on Qlik Sense.

Kirill: Qlik Sense is a tool, a competitor of tableau, and in this podcasts somewhere past the midpoint of the podcast, past the 30 minutes of this podcast you will learn how they compare and why you need to learn both, why it’s so powerful to know both of these tools and what it’s going to take in order for you to master them and also Jean-Pierre will give some insights about his course creation process and some of the challenges that awaits you within. So I’m very excited for you to check out this podcast and meet Jean-Pierre, so without further ado I bring to your data visualization expert Jean-Pierre Labuschagne.

Kirill: Welcome back to the SuperDataScience podcasts ladies and gentlemen, super excited about today’s episode. Today we’ve got Jean-Pierre Labuschagne calling in from the Netherlands. Jean-Pierre how are you doing?

Jean-Pierre: Hey Kirill, good day.

Kirill: Is it cool if I call you just JP, I’ve heard you know, (inaudible) call you JP Is that fine?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, that’s perfect as well. I don’t mind that at all.

Kirill: That’s awesome. So Jean-Pierre as we were chatting before this, you are from South Africa, but you are in the Netherlands. What a crazy story. Isn’t that so cool? How are you feeling there?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, indeed, it’s of course, quite a distance from where I used to live and where I grew up, but I’m enjoying my European journey. I’ve been living in the Netherlands now for about three years. And just loving the whole experience as well, and how different things are. And that’s also part of the reason why I moved here. So pretty cool. 

Kirill: Both countries are amazing. I really like South Africa, like I mean you know, I grew up in Zimbabwe, from ages 5 to 12. What part of Africa are you from? What part of South Africa?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, so I was all over the country. Right. I was born in the north eastern parts close to the Kruger Park. The very famous Kruger National Park, small town called Nelspruit. And then I did my degree at the University of Pretoria. So a bit more, I would say ways from there. My first job was in Johannesburg and I ended up in Cape Town before I moved to the Netherlands. So it was a very difficult goodbye to say to Cape Town for sure.

Kirill: All over the place. But it’s interesting. It’s almost as if you’re going back to your roots, ancient roots, because, as I understand, South Africa was originally explored and discovered, and populated by the Dutch, right?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, it all happened in 1652. And I’m not going to make a history lesson out of this but that’s when Jan Van Riebeeck, yeah, reached and kept on with his three ships. But yeah, that’s also quite funny because I was working in the Netherlands and one of my colleagues asked me and so where does this funny surname come from? That I do get a lot people have no idea how to pronounce it or where it’s from. And she actually went on to Wikipedia and she had her look at where all my family history came from. Something I never actually did and… Well I probably looked at it with Wikipedia though they didn’t slot it out but as you know, it’s obviously crowdsource, so I can say the crowd adds to it. And funny story it was actually from the Netherlands and I know exactly the exact town, which my great-grandfather came from. That is quite something cool. Yeah.

Kirill: That is incredible. Have you been to that town?

Jean-Pierre: Yes, of course. As soon as I found out, yeah, I made a little trip there. Of course, there’s not much to see from the family back those days back. But yeah, still a pretty cool story. As my great-grandfather was actually not destined for South Africa. He got ill on one of the ships and he stopped off in South Africa. So he was actually on his way I think to India or somewhere. So by luck, we ended up in South Africa. 

Kirill: What a story, that’s so cool. And what brings you to the Netherlands?

Jean-Pierre: Yes, it was actually for a job that I undertook from South Africa. The company I was working for reshuffled, and they needed some analytics assistance in the Netherlands. And my hand was first up of course, even before the question came, my hand was up, so they knew before and, I have always wanted to have a bit of European or at least an overseas work experience as well. The company I worked for was… now the projects was based outside of the country, but it’s a different thing to be on holiday or before a project overseas then actually living and integrating into society and see actually how it would work.

Kirill: Yeah. I totally agree. A lot of our listeners, majority, I would guess have not been to South Africa. And you and I have what’s… like let’s share something like what’s the most different thing about South Africa now that you’re been three years in Europe. What would you say is like the most exciting thing for people who want to go this Africa one day, South Africa I mean?

Jean-Pierre: Well, you would know the lion roam free on the streets, right?

Kirill: Not everywhere. But yeah.

Jean-Pierre: That’s a funny perception that people always have been little… It’s a topic that we always discuss with people but you know what, what I think is quite nice and of course, it’s a beautiful country and of course from nature itself, but also the people. The warmth of people. And now people look after each other and that is just something that’s so cool. Even as a visitor people come back from South Africa and tell me how great it was. And that makes me super proud. You know, my heart just starts pumping faster and bigger when I hear stuff like that. 

Kirill: That is so cool. And we hear a lot of stories about crime and like how it’s dangerous. I was back in Zimbabwe last year in, when was it like October I think. September, October. And really I didn’t notice any of that. Like, yes, there are areas that you probably don’t want to go to and that are dangerous. That is true, but in general people are so lovely so friendly you’re right like anybody like you’re walking on the street they’ll want to help you out or you know like if you’re lost for directions always tell you where to go as long as you like you don’t go the areas we shouldn’t go. It’s a lovely place. You know what else I like? I like the sunset, sunsets are so massive in South Africa. I’ve never seen something like the sun so big and beautiful during sunset, it is beautiful.

Jean-Pierre: Stop it you are making me homesick.

Kirill: Well, yeah, that’s a bit of reminiscing for sure. I love that area. But we’ve got a podcast to record we’ve got a lot to do. So what are we going to cover off today? We got a lot to cover actually, we’ve got your background, like your professional background and how your journey went through data science. I’ve had have some ideas already from like the little bits and pieces that I’ve read from your bio, and it’s very exciting. And also we’ve got to cover off your upcoming course launches about the Qlik Products, Visualisation, things like that. So very pumped we probably start with your background so our listeners and myself as also we get to know you a bit better. So tell it like we already know where your great-grandfather comes from tell us where Jean-Pierre comes from is in terms of like what did you study? How did you get into the field of data science?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah sure. I’m gonna take it back actually from school days. Yeah so at home we always had a computer my brother was always into computers and programming and so forth. And that’s where the love started for me. I do recall doing at university it was still very new to a Pascal those days because-

Kirill: Oh, yeah. I studied that as well. That was my first programming language. Crazy, huh?

Jean-Pierre: Exactly and I still build [inaudible 00:12:47] for the full computer studies and this project was my first point of sale system and the teacher was so proud she actually wanted to sell it off to someone. That’s how cool that was. But yeah, so my love for computers and data as well as stemmed from there. I like I earlier said, studied at the University of Pretoria in Pretoria and South Africa doing a BCom informatics degree. And what made that to be so cool? Of course, it’s you get to have best of both worlds right? So you go technical, not the deepest technical, of course in terms of programming, but also you get to learn the business side of things.

Kirill: Just to clarify, BCom is Bachelor of Commerce right?

Jean-Pierre: Oh, yes, of course. Yeah, indeed.

Kirill: So it’s a good it’s a good combination, right? Like IT and as you said, the business side of things.

Jean-Pierre: Yeah. And that actually had set me up quite nicely to the start of my career. Because you can actually go either into the more technical side thing being a real hardcore programmer, or you can actually focus more on the commercial aspect of things. And yeah, so after I finished my degree and all of that, I started off working at, funny enough, as a software developer. That lasted I think eight or nine months in total, and I just couldn’t anymore. I was not the guy that could sit behind a computer and not interact with people. For me, that was the biggest challenge. I did like the programming side of it and you know, creating something, but I really do like interacting with people and yeah, so that for me was why I then moved in and I joined one of the big consulting firms Deloitte I think you also worked for [crosstalk 00:14:17].

Kirill: So cool. Not in Netherlands but I heard Netherlands a very strong hub for Deloitte, like for instance, Nadieh Bremer do you know Nadieh Bremer?

Jean-Pierre: Oh, yes. Well, not personally. But I know her.

Kirill: She worked at Deloitte Netherlands as well. She’s from visualcinnamon.com. Now.

Jean-Pierre: At that time I wasn’t in the Netherlands. Right. So this is still in South Africa.

Kirill: Sorry, that’s right. South Africa. Well, it is this little known but the previous CEO of Deloitte, Australia, who I think was the CEO for like 10 years. His name is Giam Sweigers. And he actually came from South Africa. So it’s funny like how whole of Deloitte Australia, like 6000 people, they decided to have a South African CEO. And that’s, yeah, so Deloitte South Africa’s also very strong in that sense. 

Jean-Pierre: Oh, yeah. So by that time, I did actually start off in an IT [inaudible 00:15:10]. So my career path did actually take a while to get to analytics or pure analytics. But that was pretty cool as well because, [inaudible 00:15:17] audit teams in the finance teams to assess risks, and especially in IT environments. But during that time, I was always the guy that they gave the data assignments to, or the, you know, go and find problems with the data or go and make sure the data is correct or reconcile. And that’s actually where it all actually started and in Deloitte, for me, because at that time one of the directors, Craig Turnbull, that’s also now funny enough in the UK, in Deloitte. And they started off with a vision with pure analytics and which is now a massive team in South Africa.

Jean-Pierre: And I got involved into that, and that’s just yeah, where you go in deep, with least a deep dive and you’re throwing into the deep end and you have to swim as well. A lot of that happened, as you would know in consulting firms but that’s when you learn the best I believe as well.

Kirill: Yeah. What was it Bio analytics?

Jean-Pierre: Sorry once again?

Kirill: What kind of analytics was it?

Jean-Pierre: Oh, no I said pure analytics because it was always, it was more like controls testing or just writing little scripts and so forth-

Kirill: But what does PO stand for?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, pure, the word P-U-R-E.

Kirill: Pure analytics. Okay sorry, my bad.

Jean-Pierre: It’s the accent.

Kirill: Yeah, I haven’t been to South Africa in such a long time. Totally. Yeah. Pure analytics, got you. Okay, and then but you said you were in IT for three years?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah. I’m started off as a junior for about three years, then I worked my way up into more of a senior role into the analytic spot.

Kirill: Okay, gotcha. So in Deloitte and total you’re nine years I see from your Linkedin. Is that right?

Jean-Pierre: That’s correct. Yeah, that’s right.

Kirill: That’s quite a long time to be in consulting. Did you like it there?

Jean-Pierre: Well look, it’s a love hate relationship, everybody knows why. But, yeah, I think you learned a lot of great skills and that the pace is also slightly different because during that… Well after that time have also worked and outside of consulting and then you of course, find different challenges, but within consulting I think, especially it depends on your personality, we I might say, I don’t know if I’ll be able to take on that x y&z for instance. But in consulting is sometimes pushed a bit forward to do more than that. So I think that’s what is great about it.

Kirill: Yeah, for it absolutely pushes you out of your comfort zone so much. Let’s talk a little bit about this. Like, what did you like about Deloitte, I totally enjoyed my time there apart from the other this crazy working hours. And I guess, comparatively low remuneration. Compared to like other banking jobs and so on, which are like less work more money, but apart from that, like I totally loved it. For example, I admired Deloitte’s culture. Deloitte has a fantastic culture in there, it’s been voted like one of the best places to work in Australia or in Brisbane, at least many times. It’s one of the few huge companies that is voted usually like small companies get like best place to work, but is one of the few huge companies that gets best place to work. And like it just like that their system of values is very defined.

Kirill: They have these seven core values, from like integrity to… No integrity and honesty is the same thing. But like from integrity to walking in the clients shoes and so on taking care of each other and the client, clear vision, mission statements, everything is just so nice. And they’re like, what did you enjoy about Deloitte?

Jean-Pierre: Well, absolutely and I think I always see Deloitte as my first real job. That’s often I don’t really count the software development days and starting off as a new person, it’s nice to have those things in place as well. Like you just said, you immediately feel part of the family and you feel the structure and you feel safe and you have the courage to take on things and actually try it out and without feeling that you will be making a big mess of it and be ending up in real trouble. So that you have this culture of wanting to develop you as a person and people asked me also so sometimes what do I miss about Deloitte specifically, not consulting necessarily, and I think it’s the people.

Jean-Pierre: It’s just that the bonds you make or the relationships you build up and how people look after each other and guide and coach each other without worrying about anything else. I found that really heartwarming.

Kirill: Especially like, since you’re a people person, like you always said, you like being around people, like it’s so cool that the people at Deloitte are there to support you and guide you.

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely and then you know apart from the people also, is the kind of opportunities and projects you end up on. It’s normally not all exciting, but there’s really cool stuff in terms of projects that come your way as well. And again, it pushes you a bit further than you would in a nine to five normal desk job somewhere else I believe.

Kirill: Yeah, totally. I always viewed it as a… Not even as a job, but it’s like another degree, yet another degree that I’m doing, but in this time, I’m not paying for it. I’m getting paid for it. Like, it’s like University number three, it was so cool. All right. So then, after nine years, what prompted you to leave Deloitte? Why did you make that decision?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, I think you also have a career path, and you know at what point do you want to progress to in a certain organization and what are the things you want to learn and roles you want to take on and for me, at that stage, it was actually a client of Deloitte that we started having discussions about and for me to lead the team of analytics in a risk environment and audit, risk and audit environment. And that for me it’s always about, what the next step is and what how can I develop myself further and rather than being stagnant, and I believe also when you started sitting still and don’t development, that’s when you’re doing something wrong.

Kirill: Absolutely. As soon as you stop growing, you should leave, you should totally take the leap, even if you don’t know where you are going. Take the leap because at the end of the day, life is about continuously growing and improving and stagnation is terrible.

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely.

Kirill: Okay. So you went… And that’s a great compliment. Like if a client decided to bring you on board means you’re doing a fantastic job. So you were doing IT audit for them? Is that correct?

Jean-Pierre: Well, it was analytics, but in a finance, risk management and audit environment. So it’s basically for an internet group at that time, that had entities all over the world mostly in developing markets, which also came off, of course with nice challenges and again what made that exciting is that you working with different teams across the globe and for me that there was quite a good challenge to take on.

Kirill: Fantastic. And so what kind of analytics were you doing there? Like want to know what tools what methodologies were using?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, so we basically we’re working with SAS and SQL as tools from a visualization perspective, and we worked with Qlik or QlikView at the time, as well as Tableau. But in essence, the kind of work that we have done, well it ranged all from also boring reconciliations and normal controls testing, but also sometimes identifying risk in processes or within an organization that the management might not be aware of. And those of course are more interesting projects, but it’s always focused around finance and risk.

Kirill: Okay, what’s what’s the coolest risk that you identified, that management was like “Wow, we didn’t know that existed. That is like such a like a big revelation to us”?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, I’ve got two projects that really still keep in my mind till today. One is focused around, it’s a topic that a lot of people know, really, but it’s around revenue losses or revenue assurance, for instance. That’s, you know management might say, we have to tick the box on this. And do we have complete revenue now processes? Are we losing money? Or are we doing correct calculations in our system? Because the perception is always that things work as they should, I think when you have a system when you pour billions of millions of euros into your system, and it does what he’s supposed to be doing.

Kirill: So this is you already moved from Deloitte, you moved straight to the Netherlands, right?

Jean-Pierre: Well, from Deloitte, I first worked for the company in South Africa, and then I moved.

Kirill: Okay, got you.

Jean-Pierre: There’s a little bit of a spider web of how things have happen.

Kirill: All right, sorry to interrupt. So yeah millions and billions of euros.

Jean-Pierre: No problem. I was saying a lot of money spent on these systems, they’re supposed to correctly calculate revenue or to do the right things. And for us, and we had to go in and just check as tick box exercise, whether there is actually correctly revenue recorded and whether that everything is supposed to be doing as it should. And I usually remember the day we walked into the presentation, and we put it onto the screen, what is actually going on. And the CEO, his mouth just hung open, right? He was like, “Oh, yes, we know that there might be some problems here and there, but we didn’t know it’s this big.” And those are the things that you get back and that’s actually quite nice in your career.

Kirill: So how did you identify that, was it like a certain analytics approach that you use to get to that discrepancy? 

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, you see for me, most of the time, a lot of these things are about, I don’t want to say just common sense, but you’ve obviously have some frameworks, which you either, you know, at Deloitte you’ve got a lot of them already, that you can start using and adapt from there. And then you also have in your own in other companies. But for me, it’s also just being pragmatic and applying your bit of common sense around these things and looking a bit deeper. I mean, if they would say, look at A and B, we would look at A and B of course, but then as you go through this, you see something else popping out somewhere, and you don’t just ignore it, you actually investigate it and see whether it is something that can add value.

Jean-Pierre: And those are the things that I believe that throughout my career has actually had the biggest impact in any project is the things that hasn’t been asked of you and that you bring to the table. Sometimes it’s nothing, of course, and it’s something you don’t understand. But other times it’s actually, there’s some real value investigating a bit further.

Kirill: Okay, that’s really cool. I like that advice, bring more to the table. What I’m getting at is like, I’ll give you an example when I was a Deloitte, the part of the team… So I was in Deloitte forensics, but I was in the Data Science Division attached to Deloitte forensics. So we did similar projects to what you’re discussing or telling us about like the finance investigation, so on quite a lot of them. And there was this one tool, for example that we use, which as you said, Deloitte has its own frameworks. It was a framework for applying Benford’s law. I personally didn’t use this one, but Artem Vladimirov who’s been on podcast twice, and our listeners probably already know, he uses quite frequently, he was like the expert at Benford’s law.

Kirill: And so you apply Benford’s law to a set of financials and what it does, it just gives you the distribution of the frequency of how frequently the first… The digits from zero to 10, and so from zero to nine, how frequently they occur as the first digit in your set of financials. And there’s a certain distribution that should be like one should appear like 37% of the time, the digit number two should appear like 26, and so like kind of drops off. It’s a drop off distribution, so if your financial statement follows that distribution, then it aligns and everything’s good, there has been no manipulation or like no errors and things like that. But if it doesn’t, then there’s something to look into. So it kind of like helps you spot places to look in the first place.

Kirill: Another approach would be to use tools that you mentioned, like Tableau and QlikView or Qlik Sense to create these dashboards visualizations to like do some analytics, like pre work, a visual analytics to see all right, what does the data tell me? Where do I drill in? So I’m just curious, what approach did you take? How did you know where to look? Because in a big organization, there’s a lot of places that you could be looking and I agree with you in terms of applying common sense and just critical judgment. But did you use analytics to guide you into in terms of “oh, where could the problems potentially be”?

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely. Well, you take the results from certain tests and from these outputs, and the discussions that you have with a client or somebody that knows a bit more about the process. I think that’s where lot of the value comes from. Sure you can of course, apply Benford’s and so forth. But what I do find you have to apply these things correctly at the same time. Also, you know, it shouldn’t be just a ticking the box exercise, but for me, it’s about the unpacking it with the stakeholders and seeing what other value there is and what the real issues might be, or what the blind spots might be at the same time as well.

Kirill: That’s a very cool comment. Indeed, because as you mentioned before you like being around people. And so you’re leveraging in that sense, you’re one of your crucial skills that you know how to communicate with people and getting that information from them, getting those insights what, like domain knowledge, what could be critical, I think. Yeah, I never thought of it that way. That’s a very powerful way as well to do it. Okay, cool. So that’s your role, which you started in South Africa and then you moved to the Netherlands. And how’s that been going?

Jean-Pierre: Of course, relocating to a foreign country of course it’s got an impact on your life and how things work. But we settled in quite nicely. And from that you just build on where you’ve actually left off in South Africa. So at least it’s a bit closer to travel. Living on the tip of Africa is quite a commute every time to go to projects or to run the entities in our organization. But from there we continued the foundation that we’ve built, and another cool project that we actually did while I was in the Netherlands, and this was also collaborating with the Deloitte Netherlands, because they always were in the background assisting us as well. And there was a pretty cool one where we had to do a risk assessment and that is something, which if somebody comes up to you and say, we have a concern because we have been receiving a fine for instance, somewhere and we are not sure whether we are totally covered. Is there anything else we should be worried about?

Jean-Pierre: Now that question is as wide as anything can be and I think again, that’s where it goes in and you actually start drilling and seeing what could the potential problems be? Is it around how we take on customers? And as an example, I’m just using random examples here, by the way to show you project information, but are we taking on risky customers? Or are we not managing them correctly when they are taken on, for instance? And those are the sort of things you sort of use to get to the real work or the real testing that you’ll be doing. Because in that regard, we actually couldn’t do specific fact based testing, for instance, with you know, is this a problem? Yes or No. We actually had to build a profile of say, the customer, for instance, and analyze the spend or the pattern that they were actually interacting with us, for instance or perhaps not interacting with us as well.

Jean-Pierre: That was also an interesting topic as well. So we had this whole range of metrics or I can say indicators where we assess customers, and then come up with a list like a risk rated customer list of these might be potential problem customers. So, again, not giving a final answer, but at least pointing it for further testing or for further direction.

Kirill: Okay. All right. So, are you able to share what kind of tests you used to identify that?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, unfortunately, no. That’s a bit of quite a contentious one. So I don’t want to go into too much detail there.

Kirill: Okay no problem.

Jean-Pierre: In the end, it proved quite well, because of course, not everything we provided were red flags and fraud somewhere, for instance, but they were quite interesting insights which management had to act upon in those cases.

Kirill: Okay, fair enough. Sometimes, it’s worth trying out the other things don’t work out. Okay. And but now I hear you’ve got a very exciting job with a massive company that you are starting very soon. Can you tell us more about that?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, of course. So I’ve decided to take up a role with Phillips, the Philips organization, and I’ll be working with them in the business intelligence and insights division. And for that I have to move to the birthplace of Phillips as well. So shortly I’ll be moving also to Eindhoven in the Netherlands. And I was pretty exciting about that role as far as, it’s the team has been doing quite great and they’ve been building and a really excellent team. And for me to be able to bring them my career, all of my strings that I’ve built up in consulting and applied within the organization is going to be pretty exciting.

Kirill: Very cool. Congratulations on that. Sounds like a fun role coming up for you. Okay, well, that’s a great countdown of your backgrounds. We’ve got to know a bit more about JP, so let’s talk a bit about now your online education and involvement in the whole space of online education. I was very excited to read in your bio for this podcast that you’re creating these courses about… You’ve already helped us revamp the tableau courses, like Tableau 2018 and the Tableau 2018 Advanced, which was very cool. And now you’re creating courses. The courses are going to be released this month in October about Qlik Sense as far as… We’ll talk about that in a second. But what I was really excited about is that you actually started out as a student yourself of online courses and like learning this stuff, online yourself and now you’re teaching and that’s only been like two years. That’s a very exciting journey. Tell us like how did that occur? Why did you go from learning online to trying yourself out at teaching online and being very good at it?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, absolutely. It’s funny. So I was of course a student of yours, so funny now. And the good old tableau version 10. So look at Deloitte also you know, you do get a lot of on the job training, I think the majority of that is you also have these online courses at Deloitte and so forth, or any other organization. But what I realized is to also master tool a little bit better and dig a little bit deeper into the detail, sometimes you do need to spend the time and do an online training.

Jean-Pierre: And I really love the way and not just go by complimenting you, but the way that you and other instructors present courses in a very easy understanding way and fully engaging as well, where you can walk away from a course and feel empowered, as well at the same time, you know your way around a certain something and feel empowered. And I’ve always been like you mentioned earlier, being a people’s person, I’ve always liked to contribute to somebody’s career or to somebody’s skill set, for instance, even It started off in university when I was assistant lecturer as well in some of the courses I was taking to help other students along with stuff they’re struggling with.

Jean-Pierre: Because I do believe that’s, where you can make a difference. And after I’ve done some of the courses, of course, some time went by, and then I decided, “Well, let me give this a try as well”. I also have quite a lot of knowledge that I can share. And that’s when I first started off with some of the tutorials on YouTube. I think that’s an easy way to start off in teaching. And because there you can, of course, have byte size, chunks of information and things to learn for students. And then eventually, I ended up with this latest two courses we are launching this month.

Kirill: Okay, very cool. And how does that make you feel that you’re actually helping other people?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, I mean, that makes me feel really great. And also, what I’ve seen from some of the other courses that I’ve been a co presenting as well as the comments that come back, our students do actually share with us their success stories, you know how they aced an interview, or how they were actually able to impress their manager or whatever the case is. I think that is really valuable for me and really makes me feel good also, about doing this.

Kirill: Okay, very cool. So, let’s talk on that note. Let’s shift gears a bit and let’s talk about Qlik, right? So, a lot of people listening to this know about Tableau because in part they maybe found out about this podcast through the tableau courses. We don’t have a course on Qlik yet and thanks to you now we will in the SuperDataScience family. Tell us about Qlik. First of all, I keep confusing Qlik Sense and QlikView. I’ve only played around with the tools both of them long time ago, so I don’t really remember and I don’t know how they’ve changed over time. So get us a bit up to speed. What is this whole Qlik family of products?

Jean-Pierre: Sure, no problem. Yeah, it is confusing if you don’t know the way around, but QlikView is the one of the first products and I don’t know the whole company history. But QlikView is the product that I also worked with at Deloitte for as my first visualization product. And at that stage it, I wouldn’t say what was basic, but the look and feel of it is not as sexy as the new tools that we have these days. But it still works super well. And it’s got a pretty cool built in associative engine. But it automatically relates files to each other, which is sometimes not a good thing as well. Because if you don’t know your data well, and you start importing data with same, hand over the same fields, for instance, and it automatically relates it, you might have problems as well.

Jean-Pierre: But it’s super easy for somebody that isn’t that technically inclined to use QlikView or now Qlik Sense to be able to import data and actually create awesome visualizations or at least derive insights super quick. So I think what Qlik has realized is and QlikView being such a powerful tool and still being used everywhere today, they’ve also decided to launch an easy to use tool, which is Qlik Sense, well, in my opinion, easier to use tool where the interface is completely different. And it’s much more of an intuitive interface, if you ask me, but it does have also the power of QlikView behind it.

Jean-Pierre: The way they’ve designed it also is to have more of a web interface view. So whether you’re using it on your desktop as an installed app, or whether you’re using Qlik Cloud, for instance, or even Qlik server, the user interface is very similar and you can actually just jump from the one to the next to be able to continue your work. So for me, Qlik Sense and like I said, that’s the latest offering from Qlik, very easy to use tool but still, if you do know, QlikView and the transition to Qlik Sense is super easy as well.

Kirill: Okay, so QlikView is it the one where you need to like, do coding to get visualization? And Qlik Sense is the drag and drop one? Is Is that a fair comparison?

Jean-Pierre: Well, yes and no. I think with QlikView yeah, that was the perception at least you could also drag and drop data in there. But as soon as you wanted to do more, I can say more complex expressions or want to really create something decent you went the coding route, the scripting route at least. That is also available in Qlik Sense, but it’s super easy to work without that in Qlik Sense.

Kirill: Okay, got you. Which one would you say Tableau compares closest to?

Jean-Pierre: Well, I would say a combination of the two actually because but I do find with them, especially with colleagues and staff that I introduced Tableau to is that they are not sure where to go, you have to point them around way to click and what we know, it is still very easy to use, of course, but it’s not as user friendly as Qlik Sense or at least the first few steps have to analyze-

Kirill: So Tableau would be like in between. It will be, so Qlik Sense would be a bit more user friendly than Tableau but at the same time, Tableau has a bit more functionality than Qlik Sense. On the other hand, Tableau is more user friendly than QlikView and QlikView has a bit more that you can do under the hood than in Tableau, would that be fair?

Jean-Pierre: Sure, and I can hear people shouting and saying no, JP, no, but that’s exactly how I feel about the products for sure.

Kirill: Okay. All right. Very interesting. Okay. So what do you prefer a Tableau or Qlik Sense or QlikView?

Jean-Pierre: That question you’re not allowed to ask.

Jean-Pierre: No look, I’ve been on different sides of the fence many times, right? So when I was asked or when I was sort of, in the position of changing between QlikView and Tableau, I was very hesitant and I didn’t like Tableau at all. But when I changed again, from Tableau to Qlik Sense, the same happened again. So I’m a fan of both Qlik Sense as well as Tableau for sure.

Kirill: I think that’s the best way to go about it. Whenever people ask questions like R or Python, and QlikView or Tableau or Qlik Sense or Tableau, I don’t know, TensorFlow or Pytorch, things like that. Like, just answer is both. Like, learn both. Sit yourself down and learn both. What’s it gonna cost you? You already know the principles. You already know the principles of coding or deep neural networks or in this case visualization, like you know how to put a picture together. You know how to put insights together, you already know like, the core 30 or 40% of what you need to know. Maybe even 60% of what you need to know, all you need to do is add that extra 40%, which is the framework, which you do it in or the tool that you do it and just sit yourself down and learn both, like how hard is it, right?

Jean-Pierre: No, absolutely.

Kirill: And then everybody wants to hire you because you are the expert in two things. And plus, there’s so many things you learn from one there, you’re like, Ah, that’s so cool. I didn’t learn that from the other one.

Jean-Pierre: That’s what I was going to say now as well as I think when you do this, and when you do spend the time to learn both or even more tools outside of this is that you get to see, which works best, what tool works best in what instance. And that’s also when the blinkers fall off a little bit that what you can actually achieve is much bigger than you think as well. So I think it’s like getting into a car that you used to driving manual and now you have to learn how to drive, sorry, automatic car and you have to get into a manual car. It’s just things do feel a bit different at the start but at the end you when you overcome it and you know exactly why this is so cool.

Kirill: Absolutely agree with you. Okay, so and tell us about your course. So what does it take to create an online course? You’ve taken the courses that we have at SuperDataScience, and thank you for your kind comments, I really enjoy creating the course myself. So I’m glad always glad to hear that someone enjoys taking them. So what is it for you to put a course together? And what do these courses that are coming out this month, two of them so you have Qlik Sense and Qlik Sense Advanced, if I’m not mistaken. What should our listeners expect to find in those courses?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, so the thing is for… how I put the course together and how maybe but let me start with the first question. There were two questions in there. That’s what I was thinking about. So the first question about you know, what does it take to put it together? I think what when you set out to create the course you know, the tool of course, you’re very comfortable with the tool and you know, inside out from working with it and learning about it. But as soon as you start putting it together and start to put a curriculum together, one to communicate with the students and so forth, that’s when you also realize what you do know very well and what you don’t know.

Jean-Pierre: Even as an instructor, I don’t know if you find that is that through putting the course together, you do realize that I don’t know this topic that well, let me understand it a bit better, or and this is when you get to a specific topic as well. You do realize, and maybe it’s not as valuable to the student as you thought it would be. Your whole perception of how you put a course together changes.

Kirill: Yeah, for sure. That part that you mentioned, you find something you don’t know. That’s my favorite part. I’m like, wow, I’m learning while I’m creating a course. How cool is that?

Jean-Pierre: Exactly. Oh, that’s pretty neat, right? But yeah, for the two courses, it’s quite a lot of things that I wanted to share with the students. So we decided to split it into two. And that’s what’s called Qlik Sense. And then the Advanced Qlik Sense course. Where from the first Qlik Sense course, which is will be launched first as well is we take the student on a journey where they start off from a zero base. So we start off by looking at what is the Qlik Sense product. So similar to like we had a discussion now as we really look at the different products, how Qlik Sense came about. Of course, we don’t talk necessarily about Tableau. But we take a look at the Qlik Sense journey and how we got to using Qlik Sense. We of course take the student through the installation part of it. And even as much as looking at the user interface, even though it’s easy, but we step by step look at how the student can orientate themselves before they set out and actually start creating their first shot.

Jean-Pierre: So from that, we also go students start building their dashboards, and go into a bit more detail around different charts type, as well as different expressions and so forth, but more of the different options within the tool. And that all we do as normal with the courses from SuperDataScience, we do that with real world data and real world exercises. I think students really enjoyed that I certainly did as a student, where you actually work with data from the real world, and you solve a challenge that you do come across in your day to day work.

Jean-Pierre: And then yeah, that’s the basic course. And in the advanced course, we kick it into different gear. It’s an advanced course, but people shouldn’t be worried about it that they won’t be able to get through that. But it does look at the bit more of the advanced topics such as scripting, so we touch on that on in two sections of the course. But we also again, work with pretty cool NGO analysis. We solve the business case using maps. And I really like that specific challenge. It’s also one I said, I was putting together, but I do know the students are going to love it. So I’m looking forward to from to being launched. And yeah, so we do look a bit of scripting, and some further chart types and how one can extend Qlik Sense with charts that aren’t available within Qlik Sense.

Kirill: Okay, and how did you do that?

Jean-Pierre: No, the students have to buy the course here.

Jean-Pierre: No, look it’s super easy. And when students look at this, and I think we also have will have a YouTube tutorial on that soon as well, to see how you can simply from the net, download some content and slap it into Qlik Sense and start working with it. So it’s really cool.

Kirill: Okay, very interesting. And yeah, so I’m looking at the maps right now for… I went into Google Trends. And of course, Tableau has the lion’s share of the market in terms of visualization. But there’s a couple of things I wanted to mention. So while a few of this was like, four or five years ago, I was at a conference where Qlik was present. They were one of the sponsors, tableau wasn’t and they were really promoting the product to executives and getting an executive buy in. So even though like Tableau probably has like a bigger community of people doing visualization, there are still companies that just choose to work with Qlik Sense through the partnership, relationships and whatever else the deals that they struck, and there’s nothing you can do about them. So as a data scientist, you may be looking for a job or wanting to position yourself out there so that headhunters and recruiters can find you. It’s really cool to have not just Tableau or other visualization tools like Power BI on your resume, but also have as many as you can including Qlik Sense and that way certain companies will be more like you’ll open more doors.

Kirill: For instance, if I am looking at these Google trend maps and what I see is that Qlik Sense and predominantly Qlik Sense, mostly the interest comes from the east coast, you know, like Tableau is, well Tableau is based in just in Seattle, I think up northwest. So Tableau has kind of spread evenly across the US. But in terms of Qlik Sense, a lot of people from the East Coast are interested. That’s one thing to consider. QlikView is a bit more evenly spread. That’s also pretty cool. And so I guess that’s that that was my point that learning not only will enhance the different things that you know about visualization, but also are there other exercises that you are using in the course that they different to the challenges in the tableau courses?

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely, yeah. So we’ve designed fresh new challenges. Some of the data might look similar, but absolutely, especially on the advanced course, we’ve got brand new challenges set out and these do keep the students engaged as well. Of course, what you can do in Tableau, you can of course, replicate in Qlik Sense but not 100%. As you would know, as well, as each software is a little bit different. And we do really take a bit deeper look into actually what makes the Qlik Sense and easier to use or a bit better in its capability. Of course, we don’t compare it to Tableau, but we do and dive deep into what makes it good.

Kirill: Okay. All right. I think you just gave me a great idea JP, you said you don’t compare it. How about we do a bit of comparison now? What would you say is better in Qlik that you don’t have in Tableau and the other way around?That’s something [inaudible 00:50:36], for sure.

Jean-Pierre: One thing that that jumps to mind immediately and I’ve been working also with the custom chart hit series on Tableau on the YouTube channel for SuperDataScience.

Kirill: Oh, yeah by the way, I just sorry to interrupt but I didn’t know one of your videos has over 100,000 views on YouTube that you create for Tableau. Congrats on that. That’s huge.

Jean-Pierre: Thank you so much. Yeah, I was super stoked about that one. And actually, I see the latest one is over just 110k, so it’s really climbing very fast, which is pretty neat. Yeah, definitely gonna say, no funny enough. As I was saying I do a lot of what I used to do a lot of the custom charts series. And a lot of time goes into I mean, you know your Sankey charts and you need to find plenty charts that are not available within tableau as a standard. We find ways of doing it. But this one actually was the opposite. The topic was simply how do you build a tableau dashboard? It was it’s less than it’s under 20 minutes. So it’s an easy watch as well. But we start off with blank data. And we build a simple dashboard that’s interactive and ready to use. So and people love that, students love that, so sometimes it’s also the simple things that actually spark people to go a bit further. And that’s what I liked about it as well.

Kirill: Very cool. Very cool. All right. Let’s get back to the comparison.

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, sorry. Yeah. So the custom charts, for instance, and that’s one thing that I spoke also.

Kirill: Custom maps you mean?

Jean-Pierre: Custom charts. Like I said, like the Sankey for instance, that’s not natively available within tableau, or a Venn diagram is another one that I don’t know why that jumps into my mind. But the Venn diagram for instance, and things that are not natively available and that’s for me what Qlik Sense, I know a lot of other tools also, but Qlik Sense has made it easier for users to extend the capability by downloading existing extension they are called where you can extend the chart capability, but also the functionality where you are able to change the dark mode for instance, within Qlik Sense. So I do find that quite neat that the community can contribute software and open source software of these chart types, which you can easily integrate into Qlik Sense. If there is something specific, like a sunburn start that you can incorporate.

Kirill: It’s like importing a library in Python or R.

Jean-Pierre: Exactly.

Kirill: So somebody custom built it. It’s not developed by Qlik Sense by the Qlik company. And you just go on to this library like find what you like and you download it. You don’t have to create that from scratch.

Jean-Pierre: Precisely. Yeah, exactly. I think it’s a little bit more difficult.

Kirill: I think Power BI has the same thing. I think they have like a user power thing. I’m surprised that actually Tableau doesn’t have it you know, why not?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah. What I also saw with Qlik Sense by the way is in their earlier releases, they didn’t have all of the charts types like a Sankey for instance. And now they have that but as a separate group of chart arts, which seems that they are also acquiring these software packages that people build, and build them into the native chart arts so that’s also pretty neat.

Kirill: Okay, that’s very cool. And how would you say the communities in Qlik Sense are people helping each other like if you have a question and you go online, can you ask it?

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely, they’ve got a great community of people contributing and assisting each other and it’s really cool to see as well. 

Kirill: Okay. Very cool. Alright. So that’s an advantage of Qlik Sense over Tableau, what’s an advantage of Tableau over Qlik Sense?

Jean-Pierre: That’s an interesting one. No. So I look, I love tableau, of course, as well. I think the way you’re also able to tweak Tableau is really neat. Where your data is automatically associated in Qlik Sense, in Tableau you can actually just decide how it needs to be associated, or joined. And I think the term of course, is in Tableau not associated like in Qlik Sense, but how the data is joined. And also, we can blame that I know that’s also something that Tableau can do over and above what Qlik Sense can do so you have a bit more power around that part. And I do know also that Tableau is also launched a whole data preparation. I think it’s Tableau Prep that is an add on to Tableau as well, and users can clean the data and prepare it for use in Tableau as well. That’s for me is pretty cool. 

Kirill: Ok, cool. Any other major differences between the two tools that popped to mind? Doesn’t matter in which sense, which advantage? It’s something that you can mention.

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, well, I think also how you actually work with individual sheets within Tableau, rather than a dashboard, because Qlik Sense is more focused on how you create a dashboard for your user way. In Tableau, you can actually create a sheet specific powerful sheet around giving information without necessarily joining it to a dashboard, which you can then build into stories, which is also pretty neat, right? You can actually take your user through the journey of the story. So yeah, that for me is pretty nice about Tableau as well.

Kirill: Okay. And Qlik Sense does it have a, like a platform? Like what’s it called? Where you roll these dashboards out to the company as in like a Qlik Sense Enterprise or something like that where a company installs Qlik Sense on its servers and you create the dashboard and you roll it out. And the executives can see it on their own computers if they log in to the portal.

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely, yeah. So that’s also one of the strings, I think I might have mentioned earlier is that Qlik Sense has got the user interface of the Qlik Sense Desktop product looks exactly, well 99% the same as the cloud offering, which is more of a like a public offering where you can to show your work or some of the like, you’ve got to go public, but also they’ve got enterprise version. And that, again, looks pretty similar and that you can actually roll out to the whole organization and have it available for your users.

Kirill: Okay, that’s, yeah that’s very powerful, because I do know that you want the end users to be empowered with like some self service analytics so they can go through these things on their own.

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely. The way they also design is to have some collaboration on it. So users can, if you do enable it on the specific dashboard is create other views of the data as well and re share it back to the internal community. And obviously people can comment on it. And you can really collaborate pretty nice in an enterprise environment.

Kirill: Let’s convince somebody who’s listening to this and who’s like, Oh, this is really cool, great to hear this podcast. But I’m more into machine learning. I’m more into the coding stuff. I don’t need this visualization. Is not a part of how I want to structure my career. What would you say to convince someone who has that frame of mind right now? To explore visualization to add it into their career?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, I do understand that board as well. But I do think it’s one of two things right. So firstly, using a tool, a visualization tool, like Qlik Sense and to understand the data, I think we spoke about this earlier as well, to actually just see what kind of initial trends pops out before you have to do any coding or have to import any libraries or anything else. It’s really a drag and drop kind of approach to actually get to initial insights, or how you actually direct your work, upcoming work as well. I think that’s one part of it. That’s super powerful, and add to any data sciences career. But also, the other thing is the storytelling part. And you’ve got awesome libraries in Python and R to create really look good looking charts and so forth. But the ease of use in doing that in a tool like Qlik Sense is really amazing.

Jean-Pierre: Again, it’s drag and drop, it’s simply by clicking and even, like I said, also, you can share it in stories to users and users respond to that perhaps a bit easier. And if you package it nicely and take them on a journey, not only showing them one or two charts with a bit of information around it, but actually building a whole narrative around it and taking them on the journey to bring into this specific conclusion.

Kirill: Yeah, that’s absolutely, well you summed it up really well. I was doing some research into our past podcast yesterday because I’m writing, I’m preparing the second edition of the Confident Data Science Skills book, and those looking at all so why is visualization important? And we had one guest particular Alberto Cairo who’s the Knight Chair of University of Miami, I think in terms of journalism. And he’s a journalist who does a lot of visualizations to convey insights to people worldwide. And he mentioned this concept of graphicacy or being graphically literate, and being able to read charts but on our side, we’ve been able to create visualizations in a way that people can understand them and understand the insights and that these day and age it’s not enough to be literate, like being able to read and write, but you also have to be… there’s things like numeracy, then there was the ability to communicate and also this graphicacy and so I think, into to your point that even if you can get the insights through whatever kind of machine learning or other analysis, you still have the challenge of communicating them.

Kirill: And if you limit yourself to, I’m just going to get the insights and that’s it. Somebody else will communicate like my manager, you’re kind of limiting your growth, your potential to become like, open doors and be more influential in the space or be more impactful. You’re always going to need somebody to help you communicate your insights. And I think data scientists should be diverse in the sense how they not only get the insights and clean the data and do all that part but also deliver the final results and insights and products to the end users,

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s a super valuable skill to have. Because people do then sit up and notice you for sure.

Kirill: Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, JP, this slowly brings us to the end of podcast. I’m very excited for your courses. Congratulations on breaking the barrier. I hope the launches go well, and help a lot of people get impact. And I’m sure you get a lot of questions. So be prepared to answer all the questions and help people out.

Jean-Pierre: Absolutely standing ready for those and really looking forward.

Kirill: That’s cool. So to finish off, where can our listeners find you, connect with you, contact you, follow your career, so they, you know, just stay up to date what’s going on in your life?

Jean-Pierre: Yeah, I think the easiest would be to connect with me via LinkedIn. I’m sure we will share my LinkedIn profile to the listeners. The other guys are able to reach out to me there and engage a little bit and also keep looking at the YouTube channel, the SuperDataScience YouTube channel as well, cause we will be bringing some interesting content as well.

Kirill: Fantastic. Well, my friend, thank you very much for coming on the show today. Best of luck with the courses and I’ll chat to you soon.

Jean-Pierre: Thanks Kirill, and thanks for having me.

Kirill: Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen, for being part of this episode and our conversation with Jean-Pierre. I hope you got some useful insights and takeaways from today’s conversation and got inspired by Jean-Pierre story, how he moved around in his career, what choices he made and how he moved across the globe from all the way in South Africa up all the way to Europe and how he’s smashing it through his career, how he’s grown from being a student, a student of online education to being an educator, being a teacher in online education. I highly encourage you to check out the courses by Jean-Pierre, they will be available on the SuperDataScience membership.

Kirill: If you’re a SuperDataScience member, they’ll be part of your membership. You don’t have to do anything you’ll just appear within the next couple of weeks. And then make sure to check them out there and learn Qlik Sense because even if you already know Tableau or Power BI, this is an additional tool you can add to your toolbox and not only will be able to put in your resume, but you’ll able to also include, you know, like learning new things that are not easily done in tableau, you’ll see how it’s done in Qlik Sense and that will increase your scope of things that you can do.

Kirill: And then the other thing is, of course, if you’re not a member in the SuperDataScience membership, you can also get this course on its own on Udemy, it will be launched… Well, it’s being launched this month, so you’ll see some emails going out around that also will include a special coupon in the podcast show notes. Which you can find at Superdatascience.com/305. There, you’ll find that special coupon, which will, which you can also use to enroll in the course on Udemy if you choose to do that. So make sure to check out the course whether you do it on SuperDataScience or Udemy get the intense value. And of course, the exercises that Jean-Pierre has prepared, I’m sure they’re going to be epic.

Kirill: What I would do, if I was looking to enhance my visualization skills, I would go in to that course, do those exercises in Qlik Sense, and then I’ll take Tableau and do those same exercises from the Qlik Sense course with Tableau and see how it’s different and see how I can, how good am I at tableau that I can do those exercises, those challenges, and analyze those data sets with tableau. And then I would go back to the tableau courses, the Tableau 10 or the Tableau 2018 course, whichever you took, and I would see if I can do those exercises with Qlik Sense that way, you getting, instead of just doing one tool, one set of data sets, now you’re going to have two tools. And you’re going to have four opportunities, four times, you’re going to practice with different data sets. So I hope that helps you see the power of learning both of these tools that you can actually quadruple your skills that way.

Kirill: So there we go, you know now where to find those courses. And, as usual, if you’d like to connect with Jean-Pierre, which I also highly recommend, and find any materials that are mentioned on this podcast, including the transcript for this episode, head on over to the show notes, which are at www.superdatascience.com/305. And you’ll find everything that.

Kirill: On that note, thank you so much for being here today. I look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Jean-Pierre looks forward to seeing you inside the Qlik Sense Courses and until next time, happy analyzing.