SDS 125: A Glimpse into the Virtual Reality World of the Future

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Welcome to the SuperDataScience podcast. My name is Kirill Eremenko, data science coach and lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you inspiring people and ideas to help you build your successful career in data science. Thanks for being here today and now let’s make the complex simple.

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Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the SuperDataScience podcast. Today I’ve got a super exciting, super pumped episode, super futuristic episode with Andrew Borisov from the MMOne Project. And you’re probably wondering, “what is this MMOne Project?” unless you’ve already heard of it. If you have heard of it, you’re already super excited. So MMOne Project. Imagine this massive robotic arm attached to a chair where you sit down, you strap yourself in with a seatbelt, and then you put on a VR headset.

And then you have all these amazing experiences. You can go on a rollercoaster, you can fly a plane, you can do streetcar racing, one of those crazy Ubisoft ones that flies all over the place like in a rollercoaster. And basically, what the robotic arm will do, it will throw around your chair, make you go upside down, tilt you left, right, and centre, and everything. So you have a full immersive experience. You’re not just in the VR with your eyes, you’re in the VR with your whole body. It is insane. And we’ve added their promo video for the chair for the MMOne experience on the SuperDataScience website, so if you go to www.www.superdatascience.com/125, you will see what it’s all about. You will see how people are playing these games, or sitting on rollercoasters, and the chair is throwing them all over the place. This is something completely new, this is the most advanced version of this in the world. It has crazy rotational angles, like 360 full rotation, 30 degrees left-right rotation, what else does it have? Another 360 full upside down rotation. It’s insane.

And so Andrew Borisov is one of the co-founders of this project and what we talked about is lots of interesting things. So we definitely talked about how his career shaped, and how he quit his job to work on this project, even though there were 5 years ahead before they even got to something commercially viable, something they could release to the world. How to follow your passion, how to jump into the unknown. Also, Andrew is taking courses on AI in parallel, and he will be talking about that, how he finds time to do that and what he thinks of AI.

But I think most importantly, it was very valuable to get his perspective on virtual reality. On the space of VR, where it came from, how it’s been developing, if it’s dying off or not, and where it’s going. And he shares some very cool insights. And it was really great because he’s got all the experiences, this is what he lives and breathe, virtual reality all the time, and so it was very, very insightful to get all that information from a person who actually works in the space of VR.

Also, a fun thing that he mentioned is that the MMOne project is being deployed around the world in different cities, so when we were speaking, he was actually in Las Vegas sitting in one of these big chairs somewhere in Las Vegas. And so it’s being set up all over the world. Make sure to check out in the list of cities that he mentions on the podcast, if your city is among one of them. If it is, then hit him up on LinkedIn and he might be able to arrange access for you to go check it out.

I can’t wait for it to come to Australia, I can’t wait until I go to a place where it is. It looks so amazing. And without further ado, I bring to you our discussion with Andrew Borisov from The MMOne Project.

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Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the SuperDataScience podcast. We’ve got a special guest today on the line, Andrew Borisov calling in from Las Vegas, is that right Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, perfect, yeah.

Kirill: Awesome, how are you going?

Andrew: It’s perfect. The sun is shining.

Kirill: And the weather is awesome in Las Vegas, is that right?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s shining pretty good now, so in the evening time, it’s going to be pretty cold, but right now it’s perfect.

Kirill: Awesome. So I just want to say, Andrew, a huge thank you because I’m in Australia, I just woke up, and I watched one of the videos about your project, and I was so blown away. I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. I’ve got to get one of these. And I’m just in the best mood possible right now. So thank you so much for that. It’s such a mood booster.

Andrew: It’s a real pleasure for me to be a part of this conversation, because I’m a big fan of what you guys are doing and how you’re trying to explain complicated things in easy terms. So I’ve actually completed a couple of your courses and three more to go.

Kirill: Awesome. Thank you, thank you so much as well for that. So for those listening, this is going to be an interesting podcast because Andrew is the co-founder of MMOne Project, a mind-blowing new technology that combines virtual reality and motion, and Andrew will tell us more about it. So I really want to dig into that, and at the same time, Andrew is combining data science and AI and other things that we teach in our courses with some of his hobbies. So that’s going to be an interesting combination, and they are synergetic, because one can help the other. But let’s start with you, Andrew. Tell us about MMOne Project. It is so fascinating I just want to know more. How did it start, what’s it all about, and just give us a short overview, because most listeners right now have no idea what MMOne is.

Andrew: Yeah, so it’s a virtual reality simulator, or attraction as you wish. Imagine a big chair connected to an arm, and it can literally rotate in any direction. Like, you remember Assassin’s Creed when they were doing this jump in the movie, and it was holding you back and it was kind of rotating. So your body rotates 360 degrees in any direction. So basically, the only thing we don’t do is the simulation of big G forces, because you need to speed up in this case. And also there is a full-scale PC attached to this chair and you can actually play basically any type of game and it will keep rotating you in the same direction and at precisely the same angle as what you see in the goggles.

It all started five years ago. One of our co-founders, she was the owner of a chain of 5D Cinemas, and then she heard about the announcement of the first Oculus. It was a Kickstarter company, by the way. I know you like Kickstarter and they do some crazy things there. So, she ordered 10 of the pieces, 10 of the Oculus’s. We used to be the first ones who brought it. I’m from Ukraine, so she brought it to Ukraine. And the idea was that if there is a virtual reality, your body needs to rotate with the virtual reality, so we were trying to deliver the best amount of crazy motions possible. Yesterday, here in Vegas, we had some people, they were literally shouting like a baby, you know, screaming and all this stuff.

It took us 5 years to develop a commercial product. For a couple of times we thought we’re there as commercial, but it wasn’t there yet. So, last year we released a commercial video and officially started sales, and right now we have customers from different countries, we have some installations. I am currently performing one of the installations here in Vegas and talking to some interesting people, it’s really exciting.

When I heard about this project, I was doing mobile advertisement, I was working at Opera Software, you maybe heard of the browser, so I was selling advertisement there and then I went to another company that was selling mobile advertisement. So it was kind of an IT job. I was always trying to do some entrepreneurship and I had some projects going on all the time. And in 2 or 3 months after I discovered this company and I started helping, I quit. I didn’t think about it. I just came to my boss’s office, who is also a very close friend of mine, so he was aware of what I’m doing after hours, so I basically came to him and said, “Man, you know what? I’m not there yet. I’m not listening to mobile advertisement anymore.” So I just quit and it took me almost 3 years for us to start generating some revenues and profits, so it was a complicated road and things to achieve. But at the moment we are starting to roll out globally, and it’s incredible. It’s a complicated task, it’s a complicated machine, and a lot of things are implemented there on a mechanical way and on electronics side and on development side. So we have a proprietary technology of the controls, of the things and software that controls the whole attraction.

There are like four units that rotate in different direction and the most important part is to make it work all together without any delays, because the biggest challenge with the VR for now, I would say it’s the motion sickness. We had a very interesting discovery, so when we made it all the way it was supposed to be, and the body actually felt the way of the rotation, the way it was supposed to be, we discovered that people usually don’t feel sick at all because your body is in the game and you feel the game with your body, so you usually don’t get sick. I mean, of course when you get upside down, you might feel a little nauseous, but it’s not about the VR.

Kirill: That’s really interesting. I’ve actually experienced this. When there’s a disconnect between what your body is experiencing and what your mind is seeing, then there is a chance you’ll experience motion sickness. But based on what you’re saying, it seems that if everything is in sync, it’s actually better for you in terms of not experiencing motion sickness.

Andrew: Yeah. We had an interesting case. We were showcasing two years ago on Paris Games Week, it’s a very big show, like 300,000 people, and our main game is TrackMania, which is by Ubisoft and it has an e-sports there. So, all the best players from all over the world came there to try to make their championship. And they didn’t want to try it with MMOne because they tried TrackMania in VR without a chair and they felt sick. So it took us like 15 minutes to convince them to try, and it was even the previous product, which wasn’t that good. As a matter of fact, it turned out that they didn’t feel sick.

Kirill: That’s so cool. I think I saw one of those videos. By the way, we had a guest on the podcast at the very start, in the first ten episodes, Ulf Morys. Ulf, if you’re listening to this, a huge hello, because Ulf is the finance director for Ubisoft in Germany, Austria and Switzerland region, so it’s very interesting how now you’re talking about how you’re working with Ubisoft. And I saw a little preview of that game TrackMania on YouTube, it’s crazy. Like, that car is falling like a rollercoaster and the thing is MMOne is just rotating the player, it’s absolutely insane, he’s like face down, towards the ground, in the air, and the thing is rotating. It’s just crazy how well-synced it is. I really, really love it.

Andrew: To tell you the truth, we had another technical issue. The tracking in the VR is a very big issue, because when you go upside-down, the picture sometimes doesn’t always follow what you see and what’s in the game. So it took us a couple of years. We switched to open-source technology and we had to tune it up a lot in order to make it work, but now I can officially state that the tracking in our attraction works the way it should be, so when you go upside-down, you see yourself upside-down the way it should be.

Kirill: Okay, that’s really cool. It sounds like there was a lot of work involved. You mentioned it took you two years to quit your job and then three years again before you actually became a commercially viable product. Tell us about that. How did you see this? At the start of the journey you are probably looking ahead and it looks like there’s so much to do, there’s years and years of work before anything will even come of this. How do you keep yourself motivated to keep going? What kept pushing you?

Andrew: It’s the results that you get in the end. When we started, we decided to make our own content, but we were not that strong and it was like a long time ago, so the content we created wasn’t the way it should be. Then we realized we need to have a strong, reliable partner and we researched a lot online about what was in VR back in the days, like three years ago. I mean, I didn’t have any contacts with Ubisoft, so I started sending them e-mails and LinkedIn requests and so on. As they told me later, when we already committed and did the show and all the things, I literally was very annoying, but since the product was interesting, they decided to come in.

So when you get such results, step-by-step results, this is what keeps you motivated because you see a very big light at the end of this tunnel. It takes a lot of strength and time to produce something and make some really cool results. But then you go to the chair, you try it, and you understand why you are doing this.

Kirill: Interesting. A question that a lot of people probably don’t really think about, when you talk about end result, is it about how successful you will become and how much money you will make, or is it about how you can actually impact other people and change the way we experience things for hundreds of thousands of people?

Andrew: First of all, I would say that we’ve been bootstrapping all this way, we didn’t have a big investment round closed yet. And we had one of the versions, which was a few years ago, that we took to the United States for like six months to the Silicon Valley, we showed it to numerous amount of people, but then we realized we need to work on the product, we need to finish the product.

So answering your question, I would say that it’s not about the money in the first place, it’s about what you do and what product you have. If everything is in place, the financial success in this type of project, because it’s really innovative, is going to find you. So I would say something like this. If you start playing for money and your product is not ready, nobody is just going to buy it and in this case, you have a problem.

Kirill: Yeah. Even in terms of believing and passion, if you’re doing it just to become rich and famous, there is a high chance you will potentially burn out. With the obstacles like you guys had, you had so many obstacles along the way, you’ll be like, “Oh, there has to be easier ways. I’m giving up on this.” But if you’re just passionate about the end goal of what you’re creating and you really believe in your product, or if you have a career and you really believe in yourself and where your career can take you, how amazing it can be, then that passion fuels your efforts.

Andrew: Exactly, it’s the one that’s driving me, 100%. Otherwise it’s just not going to work. You will just sit in the office and just pretend you’re doing something while browsing your Facebook feed, you know. (Laughs) Sometimes it happens. I would say that sometimes it happens when you’re out of power, but then something happens, some kind of event is going on, and you have the power to go on.

Kirill: Yeah. And tell us where and when you think we could experience this MMOne technology. When will it be on the market? Or if people want to experience it early, what kind of shows can they attend to have a feel for it?

Andrew: Okay, so we started with the entertainment. There are a lot of other areas like military simulation, health care. In terms of entertainment, it’s officially in the market. We currently just performed an installation here in Las Vegas. It’s in the private territory, so it’s for private rights, so if you want to try it here in Vegas, I believe there would be some contacts for me after this podcast so you just send me a message and I will tell you how you can do it.

Also, we currently are performing an installation in Phuket in Thailand; it’s going to be up and running before Christmas. Another one would be early January installation in Qatar, in Dubai Mall, which is kind of insane. The third one will be by the end of January in Dubai Mall in Dubai. So, the product itself is pretty expensive, so we received, during the time when we were [indecipherable 18:07] in Paris about purchasing—the regions that we started with are those Arabic countries, some Asian parts and, of course, the United States.

In the United States we have now a distribution company that will distribute us and provide the whole technical support, so we have huge plans for the United States. We just came back from the exhibition in Orlando called IAAPA Show. It’s like the biggest event for the out-of-home entertainment for any type of theme parks and so on. We’re having so many discussions right now and more contracts on the way, but the good news is yes, the product is on the market and you’re going to be able to try it.

Kirill: Awesome. Fantastic! Thank you so much. There you go, guys. Those are some locations that you might be able to experience MMOne at. And in terms of other companies, obviously you are the first to market, you’re the first with this idea, but are you seeing, since it’s been quite a while – 5 years – are you seeing any competitors pop up, are you seeing any other companies that are doing similar or even the same thing?

Andrew: Look, first of all, I would say that we’re not afraid of competitors. Three years ago, when I was talking about out-of-home VR entertainment, nobody understood what it is. Now when I’m saying this, people know what it is. There are a couple of companies that are in the market right now and I’m sure there are going to be more. Chinese are going to try and build something, but in the end it’s all about the mix of the content onto the hardware, so we feel pretty confident it’s going to be fine. And there is a big company, KUKA Robotics, which was founded in Germany in 1897, I guess, and it was recently acquired by some of the Chinese guys. This company, they build robotic arms for the manufacturing, so industrial ones. They’re trying to do something in VR, but their solution is way more expensive, it requires more space, but we do love it. It’s really great.

Of course there will be some competition there, and there is. Most of the companies, they don’t do this 360, they just do some kind of small motion platforms, which is pretty cool as well. I tried one in Shanghai last year, it was from a Chinese company, I don’t even remember the name, they had the ‘Project Cars’ game integrated with Oculus and it was mind-blowing. It wasn’t moving a lot just when you drive through regular racetrack, but it had a professional steering wheel and it was all synced together very good and it’s way cheaper compared to our solution. It’s a different type of motions, but I did like the product, for example. So, answering your question, yeah, there might be a lot of competitors [indecipherable 20:55].

Kirill: Gotcha. That’s a really cool attitude that you guys are not afraid. I personally think when there are competitors, that means there is demand.

Andrew: Yeah. If there is no market, there might be a very high chance you are entering some kind of wrong direction or something that’s wrong, or there will be a market in 20 years and in 20 years you might just not survive, you know. It’s very important to [indecipherable 21:22]. In terms of our product, by the way, it’s a lot about the development of the VR technology, which is even now not there yet. So if we did it, did such a commercial role 5 years ago, it wouldn’t be good for the total product because if the VR has something wrong with it, you just don’t get the result and you might get sick or whatever it is.

Kirill: Okay, that’s a good point. And when you say ‘out-of-home VR entertainment,’ does that mean a person can’t just buy one of these and put it in their house?

Andrew: If a guy like Branson decides to buy one, I’m sure he will get all the approvals and he just doesn’t care. But in general, this thing requires all the time a person who is running it. So imagine you get into a chair, you go upside down, and you’re running out of electricity or whatever it is, there should always be a person around you who will push all the required buttons in order to go down. That’s why the certification for the business, out-of-home VR entertainment, and for personal use is way different. Frankly speaking, I have no idea what kind of papers you need to get to get the private approval. Usually, when it’s a wealthy person, they just know how to do it right, but in general we don’t sell to any private associations.

Kirill: Gotcha. So you’re targeting markets like theme parks, shopping malls and places where there are lots of people?

Andrew: Yeah. It’s actually an interesting one. First of all, it’s any location, indoor location where you can install it, make some small fans, [indecipherable] people not to get there. So it starts from shopping malls, but in shopping malls you have like one or two attractions you can actually play in via one versus each other and so on. If we’re talking about theme parks, it’s different. You need to have 30-50 at the same time running simultaneously and usually it’s a customizable approach.

Kirill: Oh, I see. It’s like a big rollercoaster for 10 people, and you put 10 people in these VR things instead of putting them into a rollercoaster side-by-side and they all experience it at the same time?

Andrew: Yeah. And another big area where we want to go is e-sports. Imagine there is a big stadium or whatever it is, and you just put a lot of MMOne’s there and people are just watching in VR what’s going on or just the screen. It’s a new type of entertainment and I’m sure it will evolve in the next 3-5 years. Even now e-sports is getting crazy, it’s a huge market, and I’m sure that once we have some kind of cool motion there we will make some kind of insane battles like robotic battles or whatever it is.

Kirill: Okay. That’s some really cool insights. What do you think of this notion that has been recently circulating—like, last year I’ve been hearing that VR is slowly dying, it’s really shutting down. If you remember, a few years ago, when Oculus came out and then after that when virtual reality was super popular and everybody wanted it, I even got one, and then the number of games slowly started to drop off and they stopped developing some games and so on. What do you think of that? Why did that happen and is that going to correct itself?

Andrew: Yeah. And now everybody does Bitcoin. (Laughs) Look, it’s pretty straightforward. In order to get into good VR, you need what? You need like HTC Vive – $70; you need a PC – $1,000 and some small adjustments; and you need a big room for this. So it’s like $2,000 and a big room. And basically you’re not going to be playing it all the time, 5 hours a day. You just need some cool experience for 10 minutes or one week, whatever it is, it doesn’t matter, 30 minutes. And when you go to out-of-home place, you might have a headset that is worth $3,000 and it has 8K resolution. So the type of the picture and the motion that you’re going to see there, you will never get it at home or you will get it, but for unreasonable money.

This is basically the reason that the home experience with VR is really slowing down a little bit, because Silicon Valley invested enormous amount of money into VR recently, especially into the games and technology and all the optics and stuff like this, and it’s going to be good. But of course, the markets say AR is much bigger. So, yeah, for the home experiences, it’s going to slow down a little bit, at least for now.

Kirill: What does AR stand for?

Andrew: When you have a picture and something is on your screen, not in the real life.

Kirill: Oh, like augmented reality?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Kirill: Okay. Cool.

Andrew: Of course, it’s much bigger, and what Apple is doing is really great.

Kirill: And it really puts it into perspective. It really explains that the technology is there, it’s going to be very crazy, very good, but at the same time it’s just going to be expensive for a while so that’s the best solution, to go to a theme park or a shopping mall and experience it there.

Andrew: Yeah, so it’s not going to die, but if you even buy some kind of $100 set up for your mobile phone, it’s just simply nothing to do there. You try it for 15 minutes – this is the usual case – you buy a couple of games and then you just leave it and you’re off. This is basically the reason.

Kirill: Thanks for that description. Another thing I wanted to ask you, I heard from someone that we are getting to 4K, the retail-available VR headsets are soon going to be around 4K resolution. I don’t think they’re there yet, I think they’re at 1080 still, or 1080×920, and then it’s 4K. But then I heard that once we get to 8K resolution, the resolution of the image is going to match the resolution that our brain processes in the visual cortex, and you won’t be able to tell real life apart from virtual reality. Is that true?

Andrew: Yeah, and this is where the things will start really interesting. By the way, when you add on top of this some kind of artificial intelligence, we can finally talk about those virtual worlds. I heard people say that, “Because of what you guys are doing, there will be so many jobs lost and unemployment will be crazy.” People in countries like U.S.A., they will get their salaries, like minimum wage, without doing anything and they will have to spend their time somewhere. This is where, once we get there, things will start to get really funny.

And in terms of the technology, yeah, the headset that we recently started to use is 2800 pixels by 1900-something, so it’s like 3K. And Pimax is a Chinese company that want to release the 4K or 6K in February, they just yanked $3 million or $4 million from the Kickstarter campaign, so it’s kind of crazy. So it’s getting there little by little. And really, even on a 3K headset you still see the pixels. When you’re going to lose this feeling, it’s going to be really good. The other problem is that you usually need to use the technology of rendering and not the whole picture simultaneously because it’s crazy, you will need at least two GeForce video cards, but rendering the part of the picture where your eye is actually looking at right now. There is a company StarVR made by Acer, I guess. They are doing a very crazy headset. It would be very expensive, but it has this rendering of the location where you’re currently looking at and it saves a lot of power for the new video card to generate the picture itself.

Kirill: Wow, that’s crazy. So it’s going to track the movement of your eyes to understand how it can generate the picture more efficiently and save computation?

Andrew: Yeah, so you don’t need the right bottom part of the VR picture there if you’re currently looking to the left and up, something like this. I would say that in a few years we’re going to get there and it’s going to be really funny. And this is where they’re going to implement artificial stuff, really artificial. There are a lot of books about virtual worlds and we’re going to get there pretty soon. Also on top of this, picture is not the only one. You also need some kind of motion, and this is where MMOne is currently playing a little bit as well.

Kirill: Nice. Very cool. I have one more question on this topic before I move on to data science-related stuff. If you’re able to disclose, what’s the price for your MMOne currently?

Andrew: Yeah, we usually disclose the price during the enquiry, but I think it’s not a problem to publish it here. So the price for one attraction right now is €125,000. Just for you to understand, this is a 1,500 kilogram setup with at least three computers and a lot of engines and so on, so it’s not something that you buy a PC. Yeah, it’s relatively not cheap, but it’s for business. It usually takes you from one year to two years tops, depending on the location and the business and the country of course, to get your money back and get your return on investment.

Kirill: Very interesting. And do you by chance know how much it costs to build one rollercoaster?

Andrew: I would say $30 million to $50 million, but the most important part is not even the hardware. First of all, you need a lot of space. Here you have 25 square meters of indoor space which works 365 days a year, and if you built a rollercoaster in Canada, for example, it would be operating like 2 months a year. So it’s different. We’re getting into a new era and this type of new entertainment is pretty fascinating. There will be more. There will definitely be more.

Kirill: Okay. Fantastic. Thank you so much for that excursion to MMOne. If anybody listening to this podcast would like to buy one, please contact Andrew and hopefully we can get more and more of them around the world. I would love to get into one and try one for myself.

Andrew: Kirill, we’re going to send you a commission check and we’ll—

Kirill: (Laughs) No, I’m just all for the experience. Just send me one MMOne and a person with it so that I can install it here somewhere. I’ve got a feeling like Australia is going to be one of the last places you come to.

Andrew: No, no it’s not. We’re currently having a discussion with one of the shopping malls. I don’t want to disclose—I actually don’t even know the name, but we’re talking about multiple installations in Australia during the next six months.

Kirill: Oh, that’s so cool. I would love to experience one of them. As soon as I’m near one, I’m checking it out. Okay, let’s move on to your passion and your hobbies. Why data science? Tell us. Why did you decide to learn courses on data science? What drove you to this education, this online education?

Andrew: I need one promise from you. If I get too boring, just stop me without any question.

Kirill: Okay, I promise.

Andrew: So, look, I was trying to become a developer when I was 15, but something didn’t go there. I don’t know. I was always about the IT, but I didn’t know that it’s not only development itself, but it’s also some kind of business part that I’m currently doing, actually. So like a year ago, I wanted to do something. I had some free time and I wanted to start something, so I started learning HTML and CSS. I always wanted to do something like data science, but people kept telling me that it’s too complicated and I’m not going to make it. I did enjoy geometry while I was at the university, so I was like, “You know, we need to do something.”

One thing led to another, I started JavaScript, little by little PHP and so on. I even did some stuff for Apple, like learning, just learning, just a hobby. So at the end of the day I ended up with some of your courses and I was surprised how you guys can explain complicated things in an easy way. So I completed it now, machine learning, I’m about to complete the deep learning course, and I’m very passionate about starting two more courses.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a lot of time to play with it right now, but I know as soon as I have, I’m going to combine it with robotics and 3D printing and I want to create some kind of nice robot. By the way, I’m very impressed with what Elon Musk did with his OpenAI. It’s crazy. When I discovered that it’s all on the GitHub and you can actually download it and play with it and enhance it, I was like, “Guys, do you understand what is happening with this world?” In a few years it’s going to be so different and AI is already taking out some jobs and it’s going to be even more. So I think this is not even the future, this is a reality, and if you’re not there, you don’t know what’s going on.

Right now, to create some kind of neural network—yeah, you need to know Python, you need to know how it works, but I heard Microsoft is implementing something about machine learning tools in their Microsoft office. I was like, “You know what? In two years you won’t have to actually be a developer in order to do something about data science. You will just push a few buttons.” So until the technology is not there yet, there are so many things to do and so many startups too.

Kirill: That was fantastic. That’s a fantastic description. And it was funny because you mentioned time, because I was about to ask, how do you even find the time with your travels, with setting up these installations and talking to different suppliers? If you do find time, when is it that you learn? Is it in the morning, in the evening, how many times per week? How does it usually happen for you?

Andrew: If we’re talking about passion, this is something that you can do any time. Let me explain. After a hard day you can come home and you can either choose YouTube with some stupid videos on Nickelodeon, or you can just open Udemy in my case. It basically happens in the evening time, I spend half of an hour or an hour just watching things. Of course, at a certain point in time, you will need to code yourself and do things yourself. I mean, video format is very good for me because I can watch and see what’s going on and listen to the explanation of the author of the course.

So if you really like it, you are going to find the time. But for the past month, I wasn’t able to listen to Udemy because I’m in the United States and a lot of things need to be done. But in general, when it gets a little bit slow, it’s pretty easy to find time.

Kirill: Okay. Very interesting. So, even though you’re not really applying it at work right now, you’re just learning for the future. You’re investing maybe into a future project or maybe MMOne will be using AI at some point.

Andrew: Definitely.

Kirill: Okay. That’s really cool. You mentioned that you wanted to be a developer and that didn’t work out. How is it different now? Did something change in the technology, or did something change in your approach? Why did it not work out when you tried before and now you’re actually enjoying it and you’re passionate about what you’re learning?

Andrew: It’s hard to say. The development itself changed, I would say, because when I was doing it, it was like C++ 3.1 or something like this, and then after I lost it for a lot of years. But I’m not sure I’m going to be a developer in a usual way or whatever it is, but even when we talk to developers that work at your company, you need to speak the same language. So even though I might not end up being some kind of senior data scientist or whatever it is, it’s important to understand things. So if I’m going to need to have a task for my team, we’re going to have a much more clearer conversation and we’re going to understand each other on a certain level.

I have no idea what’s going to be in 5 years, but at least I want to have the knowledge in the area that evolves so fast and will change the world and is changing the world. So we’ll see where it will take me, but what I’m learning, I really like. I mean, it’s complicated, of course, but in general it appeared to be not as complicated as I was thinking it is.

Another topic is maybe that AI itself might not be there yet the way it should be, because all of the time people keep telling me, “Okay, you like AI but it’s just like I++ when something happens on this approach.” And on one hand they are completely wrong because all the libraries that currently exist and OpenAI project, for example, and so on, it’s crazy. But on the other hand, I would say that the mind of the computer will change, the way that it’s working is going to change.

Kirill: Okay, I understand. And tell us some of the challenges that you had in this learning, in this recent learning that you’ve been studying AI, data science. It’s not always probably been smooth sailing. What are some of the roadblocks, apart from lack of time, that you encounter?

Andrew: It was actually funny. First of all, you need to understand that this is the area you want to study and it took me a while. Second of all, you need to know who your mentors are. You need to determine. In my case it’s your great courses, but it took me some time to figure out that this is the course I want to do. And then after this, you need to find a sequence, how you want to start with what. For example, it took me a while to understand that I need to start from the machine learning course, then go to deep learning course, then go to AI learning course and not just start with AI at the beginning because otherwise you might not understand what’s going on. It takes you some time to realize it, but when you realize and all the things are in place, you just need to study. There are still some topics that are complicated for me or some topics I don’t understand. Sometimes I just watch it for a couple of times in order to understand, but in general this is very crazy.

Kirill: Okay, gotcha. That’s a very good description of the steps. You need to understand what you want to study, and that takes some trial and error. And then you need to understand who your mentors are, so basically where you get the source of education, and then you need to understand the sequence. Well, I’ve got some good news. Now that you’ve identified that you kind of enjoy the way we create our courses, we actually can help you or anybody else listening with step number three. If you guys go to www.superdatascience.com/course-map—we should really change it to a shorter URL. I’ll ask the team to change it to just www.superdatascience.com/map.

But if you go there you will see a map of our courses, it’s interactive and you can set your mouse over where you want to go or where you want to start or where you’re thinking of starting, and it will tell you what career paths and what kind of options you’ll have from there and which courses in which sequence you need to take. You might find that helpful. Check it out.

Andrew: Wow, that’s so nice.

Kirill: Okay. That’s a good point. So those are the challenges. I’m really asking these questions because your example is very inspiring, of a person who has found something successful that you’re working on, something you’re already passionate about, and yet, on the side, you still maintain this other passion of yours for artificial intelligence and it’s very cool to see. There are people listening to this podcast who might already have a passion for gardening or a passion for airplanes or something, but are also still considering data science. So I think they can maybe leverage some of this experience that you have. My next question would be, what’s a recent win that you can share with us in your studies, some progress that made you feel like, “Oh, yes, I did it.”

Andrew: Unfortunately, no. There are no neural networks that I created that were super successful. I would say that I would need a few months more to study and then to start. By the way, a very important part which I’m not following sometimes, you need to start doing something before you think you already know everything, so basically in the very beginning, because otherwise you’ll get away from the reality.

This is a problem that I actually have. It takes some time, so I need to still finish some courses and then start doing something. Unfortunately, there is nothing that I can say like, “I’ve created a tool for this,” and so on. But, since I would call myself an entrepreneur, while studying all of those I have so many ideas of where I could implement data science potentially, so it’s not some kind of project that I’m not going to be doing in the near future because I have some things to do, but at least I’m keeping track of the technologies that are currently running. And since I’m not a big fan of Bitcoin, I’m not spending my time there. It’s a problem, by the way, as well, but it doesn’t matter for now. I’m not spending my time there so I can spend some time on data science.

Kirill: Interesting. What do you mean you’re not a fan of Bitcoin? I thought everybody is a fan of Bitcoin these days.

Andrew: I mean I didn’t invest in it so I’m not holding any Bitcoins. (Laughs) For me it’s just a chart. For different people it’s not a chart, it’s the amount of money that they currently own.

Kirill: Okay, gotcha. But in terms of breakthroughs and wins, let’s not talk about things that you’ve created in neural networks and stuff. Is there something that you’ve learned that was really hard to learn and then you thought, “Oh, okay, now I understand it, this makes total sense?” What’s the most exciting thing that you learned in the past couple of months?

Andrew: I would say that the most exciting part for me was when I started the first course on machine learning, like basic algorithm, and I realized that this is not as hard as I was thinking it is. So basically, when you study it, of course you need to know some mathematics and so on, but not in a too complicated way and manner. So, the biggest blessing for me was I think I’m good enough to understand this someday. When I realized it, I was like, “Wait, this means I can do this, this and that,” and then I was like, “Okay, let’s do it.”

Kirill: Fantastic. What would your advice be to people who are in a similar position as you where they’ve found something they’re passionate about, it’s not really the space of AI or deep learning right now, but they also want to learn more about AI, deep learning, machine learning and data science? What would your advice be for them to keep themselves motivated or how to jump into it and get good at this field that’s approaching very quickly?

Andrew: First of all, I would say, don’t listen to anybody if somebody says that you’re not okay to make it or it’s complicated or whatever it is, no matter what it is, if it’s data science or jumping from a plane, it doesn’t matter. Just do what you think is right because it will save you a lot of time. In the end, it’s your life. You just need to find your passion and do it. I don’t think there is a secret formula for this. It’s different for every person, the way they need to go through it.

Kirill: Okay. That’s a good tip about don’t listen to anyone else. Like in your case, there were lots of people telling you that it’s very complicated and you can’t do it, but it turns out it’s not that hard.

Andrew: Yeah. Imagine there is a developer who is a good developer and there is me who is an entrepreneur, and me saying, “I want to study this.” He will tell you, “Why do you need this? You’re not good at this. You won’t study this. You will not make it. Don’t waste your time on it.” But if you really want to spend some time on it, don’t listen to anybody.

Kirill: Okay, gotcha. I’ve got one more question for you as we’re slowly coming to the end of the podcast. One question, a philosophical one, and this will be very interesting to hear your opinion because of the space that you’re in with technology, and also what you’re doing for a hobby, AI. From everything that you’ve seen so far, where do you think the space of data science, machine learning, AI is going, and what do you think our listeners should prepare for to be ready for the future that’s coming?

Andrew: I don’t think it’s going to make sense for me to talk about different areas where data science could be applied in particular, like legal and everything about the images and how you process them. I would speak more philosophical and in general. One day we will come to the—I’m sorry for comment like this, but matrix, in some kind of way. Maybe not the way the Wachowski brothers described it, but what I mean is that people spend less and less time offline and more online, and it’s going to be even more. Even now in the United States, there’s a big problem. A lot of shopping malls are shutting down and there is nothing that people are intended to do with this big amount of space.

So people will get even deeper into virtual worlds and this is where we are explaining. And when you have the virtual world, you need to have an artificial brain there that can talk to you, that you can do something about, talk to another person in this world and so on. And this is where all the data science approaches need to be implemented in one way or another. So I’m thinking more global about it. That’s one part.

Kirill: That’s a very accurate picture.

Andrew: Yeah. And the other part, of course, is billions of people one day losing their jobs simply because let’s call it computer will do it better.

Kirill: How can we prepare for that?

Andrew: I don’t know. There are new professions that appear, like virtual reality architect. Do you know a lot of virtual reality architects? For example, we have a game where there’s a track builder and we need to build some small tracks. And it’s not a developer, this is a person who’s more like an architect, but they don’t build real homes, they build something in virtual worlds.

You need to study what’s going on and understand what’s going to be important. For example, if I was a developer and I wanted to go to study something, I would do data science because now you can get a very crazy salary and a very big part of the company if you’re doing things right. So you need to keep track of what’s going on outside.

Kirill: Interesting. And do you find that it’s a bit of a sad trend that people are getting out of their houses less and that they’re going to be staying indoors more and doing stuff online more and more? Do you think it’s going to have some negative effects on our psychology?

Andrew: Yes. Unfortunately yes, and this is a big problem, but there is no way to stop this. Like Elon Musk said about OpenAI before creating it, the technology is going to be there anyway, it’s going to happen anyway, we just need to have it in the right hands. The same here. There is no way to avoid it. This is where it’s all going. This is what we’ve seen in the movies of the late 20th century, you know, like 1990-something. There is nothing that we can do. If there’s not something we could do about it, maybe we need to think about it, but I don’t think so. So you can either accept it or be outside of the game.

Kirill: Yeah, go live in a forest or something like that. It’s the only way out.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kirill: All right, and then what about physical exercise? Okay, psychological problems, that’s one thing, and maybe there’s ways to deal with it. But one obvious problem is that people staying indoors, playing VR or just living in VR all the time, they’re going to have problems with their health, with their bodies. You need to go outside, you need to get some exercise. Because what you are working on in that space, you’re working in the space of combining motion and VR. It is passive motion, a person sitting in the chair, but maybe you’ve had some ideas around how we can overcome the challenge of our bodies getting in trouble in the future when we’re just sitting at home all the time.

Andrew: There are some startups that do something about it like when you’re running and doing something, but I wouldn’t call it a real exercise. Actually, what you just described, you can do at least ten startups with this theory in order to help people doing some exercise while they’re doing something in the virtual world or they don’t want to go outside. So it’s hard to have the exact answer for this at the moment. Maybe you need to have some VR gym, or whatever it is.

Kirill: (Laughs) But as the demand grows, you think the answer will come? Some companies will come with solutions for that?

Andrew: Yeah, but on the other side I think a lot of people anywhere are going to have problems with that.

Kirill: Okay. Well, ladies and gentlemen listening to this podcast, make sure you get enough exercise in order to be able to enjoy the world that’s coming ahead. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I just have—first of all, I’d like to ask you where can our listeners contact you if they’d like to find out more or maybe there’s some clients listening, like a theme park who wants to talk about MMOne, that’s totally possible. What’s the best way to get in touch?

Andrew: I have a Facebook page, I have a LinkedIn page. We can leave the links for those. I mean, I can leave an e-mail as well so they can just shoot me an e-mail.

Kirill: Okay, we’ll leave all the contacts on the show notes page. Guys, hit up Andrew. And one last question for you: What is a book that you can recommend to our listeners to help them in their careers?

Andrew: Look, it happened that I’m currently staying very close to the Zappos Company in Vegas with some kind of close touch with Tony Hsieh, who is the founder of Zappos. So the last book I read was “Delivering Happiness” and it has—remember what we talked about at the very beginning, about what should come first, money or passion and something that you do and how you do it? I mean, I’m sure that a lot of people have read this book, but if you didn’t, just find some time and try it. It’s very simple, it’s about the story of a person who sold a couple of companies, but not just sold and got some money for it, but also made something in a wise and friendly manner. The best part of the book, after he sold the first company, how it happened, I don’t want to disclose it, but you guys are going to love it.

Kirill: Awesome. Okay, there you go. Nobody has recommended this book yet on the podcast.

Andrew: Really?

Kirill: Yeah. It’s surprising because I’ve heard of it as well. “Delivering Happiness” by Tony Hsieh, founder and CEO of Zappos. All right, Andrew, again, thank you so much for coming on the show. I can’t wait to experience your MMOne technology. As soon as I get onto one, I’ll shoot you an e-mail and tell you how it went. Thank you so much for sharing all the insights today.

Andrew: Kirill, I appreciate it. It’s been a real honour for me and I would say that we’ve had quite an interesting conversation. I can’t wait to listen to it online, just a piece of this.

Kirill: Okay. Good luck with your exposition in Las Vegas.

Andrew: Thank you. And keep learning data science, everybody.

Kirill: So there you have it. That was Andrew Borisov from the MMOne project. I hope you’re super excited about this whole new thing coming. It’s so cool to think where the world of entertainment is going and that even outdoors, even in theme parks, now we’re going to have AI and virtual reality entertaining us.

On one hand, it is a bit concerning that this means less physical activity and less being able to actually getting on a rollercoaster to do that. And I think that will stay, but this is a different experience. It will be interesting to see how it goes. It might be safer, which is good. What else? Also, I think possibilities are going to be more massive there because with rollercoaster you are limited to certain things that you can or can’t do. With one of these, you will be able to go into space and do crazy things. So I think it’s a combination of the two. I still also definitely like the real physical attractions, but I wouldn’t go past something like this, so I am definitely going to try it out.

So, virtual reality – very interesting where this world is going. I had this feeling that virtual reality was actually slowly dying down, but with things like this, it makes you really reconsider. Anyway, we’ll see how it goes. Again, make sure to check out more about the MMOne project online and see their incredible feature videos of how it’s all working. We’ve got one at www.www.superdatascience.com/125. Also, there you will find all of the links and show notes and things mentioned on the show. Plus, you will find the link to Andrew Borisov’s LinkedIn. Make sure to hit him up and connect and tell him what you think about MMOne. On that note, thank you so much for being here today. I can’t wait to see you back here next time. Until then, happy analysing.