SDS 069: Steps on how to become a thought leader in the field of Data Science

Caroline McColl.

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Welcome to the SuperDataScience podcast. My name is Kirill Eremenko, data science coach and lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you inspiring people and ideas to help you build your successful career in data science. Thanks for being here today and now let’s make the complex simple.

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Hello and welcome back to the SuperDataScience podcast. Today we have Caroline McColl, who is an Associate Partner at Future You Executive Recruitment. This is a recruitment company and Caroline specialises in data and analytics.

Now this is a very important episode for many of you because this could really change the course of your career. In this episode, Caroline shares a lot of tips and hacks on how to build your career and your fame agenda in the space of data science to expose yourself to the best jobs out there. Also, she talks a lot about the important aspects of data science, such as story telling, which are very undervalued by data scientists, but which are very valued by employers. And she will give you some tips on how to work on those aspects as well.

And of course Caroline will share some of her experience in the space of recruiting in data science and how she’s placed many, many candidates into their data and analytics roles all across the globe. And the best part is that you too can reach out to Caroline about your career. So if you’re looking for a job, you can reach out to Caroline. She’s predominantly placing candidates in the Sydney and Melbourne areas in Australia, but I specifically asked this question, you don’t have to be from Australia to reach out to Caroline. The demand for data science and analytics skills is through the roof even in Australia, and she is also interested in your skills even if you are not from Australia, and possibly this could even be an opportunity to migrate to Australia. You never know.

So stay tuned, and without further ado, I bring to you Caroline McColl.

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Welcome everybody to the SuperDataScience podcast. Today I’ve got a special guest, Caroline McColl, with me calling in from Sydney. Hi Caroline, how are you?

Caroline: Hi, I’m great thank you.

Kirill: And tell us how’s the weather in Sydney? I haven’t been in Sydney for a very long time.

Caroline: Sydney is cold. It’s winter here right now. So it’s a Sydney version of cold, not what I’m used to over in the UK, where I come from. But yeah, definitely feeling the chill here.

Kirill: Yeah, I was about to say, probably that a winter in Sydney is like most of the year in the UK?

Caroline: Yes, not particularly harsh!

Kirill: Ok. Very interesting to have you on the podcast. We actually met through LinkedIn, and when I had a look at your profile, I instantly thought, “Wow, you’d be an amazing guest to invite on the podcast,” because you’re in the space of recruiting. You’re in the space of recruiting in analytics. So that’s very interesting. Tell us a bit more about what company you work for at the moment to get us started.

Caroline: Yes, of course. So I’m an Associate Partner with a company called FutureYou. FutureYou is a startup here in Sydney and also in Melbourne. But we’ve been around for about 14 months now. But we are already at 85 heads across Sydney and Melbourne. And essentially FutureYou is a different type of recruitment. So recruitment here in Sydney is kind of polarised between two different markets. There’s the big multinationals, who are fantastic or best practice, but there’s typically a serious lack of innovation and also appetite for change within those organisations.

At the other end of the spectrum, you’ve got the boutiques, who are often absolute thought leaders in their particular market, but they don’t get a chance to offer the breadth and diversity of thinking. So essentially when we created FutureYou, we built it to be a super boutique and kind of sit within the middle of the two, and we offer 12 key practice areas, one of which I head up, which is Data and Analytics. I’m an associate partner. I have a team of people working across Sydney and Melbourne helping to place roles within analytics insights space, and particularly focusing on data science.

Kirill: Okay, fantastic. That sounds like a very interesting mission, to be a super boutique firm. That’s very exciting. So even though FutureYou has been around for 14 months as you said, you do have quite a lot of experience in the space of data and analytics. Could you give us a bit of a rundown of your background, please? Where were you before FutureYou?

Caroline: Sure, of course. I actually worked for 10 years globally supporting technology business. So, 7 years of that in London, traveling throughout Asia, Africa, South America, parts of Europe. And then 3 years in Silicon Valley working specifically with a lot of start-ups and that the big tech globals on basically promoting analytics and data technology and helping them to build their global brands.

Kirill: Wow, that’s very interesting. And I’m very excited about this podcast as well because obviously you can share quite a lot of insights and information about what’s happening in the

space of data with our listeners. Let’s say if somebody off the street asked you what you do. How would you explain this?

Because obviously, the space of data is so different it would be hard to explain what you do. So how would you go about it?

Caroline: I’d say I work with people. That’s the best way to kind of summarize it. I consult to businesses on data and analytics team builds, growth, sharing industry insights and I also run data storytelling workshops. And effectively just utilizing my own network here in Sydney and across Melbourne to make effective connections, blended with international recruitment to entice data scientists over to Sydney as well.

Kirill: Okay. That’s very interesting, especially the data storytelling workshops. Could you tell us a bit more about that? I’ve never heard of data storytelling workshops, it sounds very exciting.

Caroline: Yeah, for sure. We actually launched these off the back of a client demand. So what you see in the market here in Australia is a lot of meet-ups and events around the technical skills. So if you want to upskill on Hadoop, SQL, there are plenty of ways that you can get involved in online training, go and meet with people and attend meet-ups.

What we couldn’t see in the market was anyone covering off essentially the softest skills, so the business related skills. And actually we see a huge gap in the soft skills within this market. So we put together an event which launched this year and will run quarterly. We run it in the style of a workshop. It’s called “Tell Me the Story” and it’s focused very much on how you present the data and why. So it’s all about bringing a number of different individuals from a range of industries into a room to discuss and share and listen to each other’s ideas around data storytelling.

Kirill: Wow, that’s very exciting. I think you’re hitting the nail on the head with that, because that’s something that’s definitely missing from the analytics industry and I’ve seen it so many times. There’s very talented people who are very good at the technical side of things, but they cannot convey the insights properly and that really reduces the impact that they have on either the organization or on the audience that they’re presenting to.

Caroline: Yes, definitely. Some of the key topics that we discuss there was impact and influence, how to become a trusted adviser quickly, so that whole piece around building rapport and trust, a mission to challenge the accepted, to work in a kind continuous improvement mind-set to challenge individuals within the business, and then disruptive innovation, which is key to data science. If we want to continue to push things forward, we need to have a certain level of effective disruption as well.

Kirill: Okay. That’s very powerful. And how do you find the uptake? How long have you been doing these workshops for, and what is the attendance like?

Caroline: Yeah, we just launched them this year. We just had our first one. We’re having our second in August. We try to keep the numbers around 40 to 50 people per event. The reason for

that is that we want individuals to make a genuine connection with the other people in the room and have that time to not only network and share ideas, but also to listen and to be able to ask questions. We do a lot of activities around kind of left brain/right brain thinking. And I can certainly share some video footage with you of the one that we ran just about a month ago.

Kirill: Oh, that would be fantastic. We can include that in the show notes. I think that would be very useful.

Caroline: Yeah, definitely.

Kirill: Okay. And what kind of feedback did you get for the first event? Obviously there are some things that you have to iron out and things that you have to fix up, especially after the

first event, but did you have any positive comments already?

Caroline: Yes, and really great comments which I can share with you, fantastic feedback in terms of the audience that we attracted. Sometimes what you find here in the Sydney market is that the financial services businesses and the consultancies are kind of running ahead with what they’re doing in this space, and the other businesses are not given a chance to speak up an share ideas. Now, what we aim to do is to bring someone from each and every individual business or type of industry into one room and have them actually completely shake it up.

We’ve had individuals from retail sharing ideas with people from data services. We have guys from insurance working with FMCG companies. And then we have consultancies speaking and talking to different businesses that they wouldn’t necessarily typically work with, so maybe healthcare or pharmaceutical, for example.

Kirill: Okay, that’s fantastic. By the way, have you heard of Randy Olson? He’s the author of the book “Houston, We Have a Narrative” and he’s also got a TED talk. He talks exactly about that, about the lack of storytelling in data science. I thought that could be a useful person to have on your next event if you can get him on.

Caroline: Yes, definitely. I’ll check him out and definitely invite him to get involved even if it’s an opportunity maybe to even Skype him in or do something that way. We’re all about creating an idea sharing environment and specialism as well, people who specialize in this space. And they don’t necessarily have to already be data scientists or be pursuing a career in data. They might just have some really fantastic ways to share how they’ve approached these kind of business problems.

Kirill: Okay. That’s very cool. And we’ll definitely include more links in the show notes for those who are interested in it and who are in Sydney and Melbourne if you want to check these

out. I personally am already very curious about this. Okay, moving on, could you tell us a bit about your background? What did you study? How did you get into all of this space and how does your background help you in what you’re doing?

Caroline: Yes, of course. So, my background—I actually spent 10 years supporting global technology businesses in promoting data and analytics software. I did that through a number of

events and conferences globally, so 7 years out in London and then 3 years in Silicon Valley, which was focused much more on start-ups and supporting the larger techs within the U.S. in terms of their global outreach.

From that, when we came to Sydney two years ago, I was obviously looking to continue my kind of tech journey and certainly worked to stay within the analytics area knowing that it was a huge, growing market. And I was approached by a recruitment agency to get involved with their company knowing that there is a huge demand for talent in this space here in Sydney. What they approached me to do was to set up my own business within their business essentially and to help attract talent into Sydney as well.

Kirill: Why would you say you got into data science analytics from the very start? What made you consider this field?

Caroline: My dad is actually a data scientist. His career has spanned across academia, he’s had three start-up companies and he now works in a big tech organization. Essentially, his influence on my career today has been huge. I think most of my life I’ve known that data is a huge part of making businesses successful in the future and it reaches into all elements of life. And I think for myself personally—I actually studied performing arts, so when I left university I knew I wanted to get into something that involved working with people, but I also wanted to be immersed in technology knowing that it was the most fast-paced and exciting environment to be in.

Kirill: Okay, that’s a fantastic example. That’s a very radical shift from performing arts to data science. Obviously you’re leveraging your strengths and the skills that you developed in performing arts. I think that’s great to see, because a lot of times I get questions from people who are not from a technical background but do see the importance of data and they ask how they can get into this space. And your career is a true testament that where there’s a will there’s a way. You found a way to get into data science, even if it is through recruiting, and still help thousands of people change their careers and empower businesses to do data analytics. Yeah, I think it’s a fantastic example. 

Caroline: Yes, and I think empowering individuals is what this kind of role that I do is all about.

Kirill: All right. That’s really cool. And what I wanted to ask you next – and this is a good segue into what you do – can you tell us a bit more about your daily role, what you do on a day-to-day basis?

Caroline: Sure, of course. Essentially I am a thought leader for the data space here in Sydney. I work with candidates and clients within Sydney to enhance their careers making effective introductions. I will often do problem-solving sessions with clients on team structure, people solutions for analytics. And then I support data scientists themselves and the candidates that I work with in upskilling, understanding the key market challenges, business pain points to be aware of, and training for data storytelling as well.

I create quarterly insights documents that break down the key market moves, in-demand skills, talking points for interviews. And this is all specific to the Sydney market. This document is available to everyone; it goes out to around 18 companies here in Sydney and around 300 contacts every quarter. So what this document is doing is it’s echoing back to the market all of the key information that they might need to know in order to hire or upskill or find a new role. Those are the three things I kind of help people with, so hiring, upskilling, and obviously the candidate journey itself.

Kirill: Okay. And where can our listeners find this document?

Caroline: It’s available on our FutureYou website or you can get connection to it through my LinkedIn page.

Kirill: Okay, fantastic. We’ll definitely link to that in the show notes as well. It sounds like we’re going to have a lot of very valuable resources by the end of this podcast.

Caroline: Yes, definitely.

Kirill: Okay. I have an interesting question for you. You mentioned performing arts and then you kind of described the role that you’re in. So, just quickly, what did you study in performing arts? What area of performing arts?

Caroline: Yeah, sure. I actually wrote my dissertation on public speaking, which is something that I’m very passionate about. I think the power of effective public speaking is something that should be promoted more and understood more and it should be a base level educational requirement as far as I’m concerned. I guess in terms of my background, having come from performing arts and moving into technology and then building out a career within the analytics space, I love working with people and I like to be immersed in the technology market as I mentioned. I think my core passion is innovation and that really springs from my background and the fact that I like to be on the leading edge and be the one to present new opportunities within data.

I guess if you’re looking at it from the perspective of data science, where data scientists have the chance to maximize opportunities through data, I have the opportunity to enhance this space through people and relationships which kind of supports that.

Kirill: Okay, you totally answered my question. I was going to ask you exactly about that, how your background fits in but I can see how it all ties in together, your public speaking, how you help people and how you run these ‘Tell Me the Story’ workshops. It’s a fantastic way that you’ve found to leverage what you already know and what you’re already good at.

Caroline: Yeah, definitely. I think my background in performing arts has massively influenced my career in the data space and I think that whole piece around public speaking is definitely the key driver to creating these workshops and to helping individuals in that space. And what I feel is pretty basic in terms of the business skill and it can be used and manipulated for maximum effect, that is public speaking in the business sense.

Kirill: And at the same time, you’ve never felt put off by the highly complex technical nature of data science. Tell us how have you managed to navigate your way or to actually enjoy what you’re doing and navigate your way through the space of data science without the technical background? A lot of people are afraid of that and I think your experience could be a good encouragement to them.

Caroline: Yes, definitely. I would say number one thing is, never be afraid to ask the question. So when I’m in an interview situation, for example, or a client meeting and someone mentions a technical capability or skill that I’ve not heard of before, I’m the first person to put my hand up and say, “Okay, what does that do? How does it help your business? When did you invest in this technology?” So, I’m always ready to ask the questions and always ready to put myself forward to say, “Hey, I’m actually not a tech specialist so talk me through that in layman’s terms.”

The other great resource I have is my dad, of course. So, if I ever feel embarrassed to ask a question of a client or a candidate, I could text dad and just say, “Hey, I heard about this new technology today. What does it do? I’m googling it, I don’t get it.” So, it’s great to have someone on the inside who is able to share a kind of more hands-on experience with the different technologies. But definitely never be afraid to ask a question.

Kirill: Fantastic advice. And just for everybody out there, if your dad is not a data scientist, that’s okay. You can just get a mentor or a support peer group of people who you can bounce ideas off, it’ll be totally fine with the same effect as long as you can get some external input. That’s always valuable. Okay, apart from your dad, has there been anybody or anything else that has influenced you to become better at what you do in the space of data science?

Caroline: Yes, definitely. In terms of my own career aspirations and people that inspire me, one guy who is my mentor here in Sydney is actually Sydney Minassian. He’s the CEO of Contexti. He has an amazing network here in Sydney and he’s really opened a lot of doors for me. He is definitely inspiring and innovative, and these are two things that I try to achieve in my daily work. He’s certainly a thought leader in this space and his energy is fantastic. I am all about trying to blend the barriers within this space by consulting effectively. His company actually is a consulting firm and they also provide training opportunities. He’s actually trained a number of my candidates on Hadoop, R and Python, making the right introductions and maximizing on

opportunity through people rather than just technology. I tend to run most of my ideas past Sydney. He’s never too busy to discuss or critique them, so that’s been a fantastic guide to have here in Sydney.

Kirill: Okay, that’s very fantastic. I’m very excited for you about that. I first-hand know the importance of good mentors and it sounds like you have a great one there so hold on.

Caroline: Yes, certainly. I was going to mention to you, actually, the way I met Sydney was through dad, but in an interesting context. Him and dad both won the same award. It was a DEMO award in Silicon Valley year on year. And they were actually asked to mentor each other in terms of future opportunities, how to present for the award. So, yeah, it’s exciting that that kind of sprung from the Silicon Valley relationship. And then with me landing into Sydney and not knowing anyone, I had that great kind of go-to person because he’s Aussie and he’s been back in Sydney for a couple of years now.

Kirill: Okay. That’s fantastic. Thank you for that. And for those among our listeners who don’t know the term Aussie, it means Australian. It’s such an Australian term. (Laughs) It took me some time to get used to it. Okay, we’ve talked about your mentors – obviously your dad and Sydney Minassian. Tell us a bit more about how you support the people that you work with. Of course you can’t mentor everybody that goes through your organization. I’m assuming you have dozens, hundreds, if not more, people that you’re helping or you’ve helped in your career. But how do you support data scientists globally through the work that you do?

Caroline: I support data scientists globally in a number of ways. I’d say the global element of my role is what differentiates me from other recruiters here in Sydney. I often worked with relocation candidates, and given that I have a great network across the U.S., Europe and parts of Asia, I often try to entice data scientists into Sydney to support businesses here. One of the things that I always share with data scientists within the market about how to really become thought leaders and get immersed in their market is a tenstep plan.

What that focuses around is picking your specialist subject, setting up effective partnerships and mentors, running events and getting involved in new opportunities, blogging and also sharing your opinions and ideas in the market. And also facilitating introductions that you don’t directly benefit from, which I think is key to being in effect a business person, so being able to make those connections whether or not it affects your daily work.

Kirill: Okay. I was just jotting those down very quickly while you were saying it because they all sound really good. You mentioned five. Did you say there’s ten steps in total?

Caroline: Yes, I’ve got a ten-step thought leadership program which I can send through to you guys as well.

Kirill: Okay, that’s fantastic. Can you outline the ten steps? Or it would take a bit of time and it’s better to just include it in the show notes?

Caroline: No, that’s absolutely fine. I can run through that.

Kirill: Yeah, let’s see that. That sounds exciting.

Caroline: How I advise data scientists on thought leadership is all around getting immersed in your markets. The number one thing I ask them to do is picking your specialist subject and also breaking down your ‘why,’ so why you do what you do. And within your specialist subject you might want to think about the industry, the role type or future technologies that you see yourself as a specialist within.

Number two is identifying three to five key contacts within your market that have great personal brands, strong opinions, or are very active in social media. Host them, get to know them, and tell them a bit about your ‘why.’

Number three is setting up partnerships. Effective partnerships are great. I work with a number of training organizations, educational businesses, and then also getting to know meet-up organizers as well. These people will always open doors for you.

Kirill: So that just means attending events, or going out and meeting people and networking? Is that about right?

Caroline: Networking, exactly.

Kirill: Gotcha. Okay, let’s keep going. This is golden.

Caroline: Definitely. Number four is running an event yourself, so whether that’s hosting something small, five to ten people, or setting up your own conference or meet-up, it’s a great way to challenge yourself to put your own brand out to the market, your personal brand out to the market, but to also to get to know new people and to invite new people into your world, share your own opinions and ideas with them.

Number five is any podcast or social media opportunities. Number six is through LinkedIn. LinkedIn is obviously our most powerful social media tool within the data space, so posting, following, sharing, liking. It’s all about setting yourself weekly goals and sticking to them so that you’re not putting out a flurry of information on LinkedIn and then retiring for a month before you do anything else. So set yourself weekly goals to make sure that you’re abreast of what’s happening in the market and also that you’re following your key contacts.

Number seven is around attending industry events and meet-ups, which is really crucial. This is where a lot of the partnerships and connections are going to come from. And if you don’t get a chance to attend, e-mail the event’s organizer and try to find out if you can get a copy of the slides, if you can get involved in the next event and what kind of the key learnings were that came out to that as well.

Number eight is around blogging, so obviously building your own personal brand through LinkedIn and other social media sites. Number nine is just around the insights document that I produce. Maybe you can produce your own one-pager that shares your opinions, ideas. Essentially what you need to do with an insights document is you need to give your information in an easy to do format and send it out to the market, send it out to your network, your colleagues and further afield, and that way, even if it’s kind of presented as statistics or a chart, getting your message out there.

And number ten is facilitating introductions that you don’t directly benefit from, which is always so important in building your own personal brand.

Kirill: That is so cool. I am so excited right now. This is the best blueprint for data science. Thank you so much for sharing. I’ve got a challenge. Can we go through me and do these ten, just like as a guinea pig, and we can see where I’m doing enough and where I’m not doing enough? Would you be okay with that?

Caroline: Yes, of course.

Kirill: Okay. Number one, picking your specialization, so industry / role type / technology. I think I probably have picked my specialization in terms of education. Would you say that’s fair, like education in data science, is that a fair specialization to have?

Caroline: Yes, definitely. Yeah. And do you target any specific industry or role type?

Kirill: Interesting question. Probably the most help I can offer are people who are either new to data science or who are changing their careers into data science or who are expanding their knowledge and delving into new topics in data science. I would say that. Is that a bit too broad or is that—

Caroline: No, that’s great. That’s fantastic.

Kirill: Okay, cool. So check that one off. Number two: picking three key mentors. That’s a tough one. I would say I used to have a mentor in data science, but unfortunately we’re in different

countries so we don’t get in touch anymore. And the other two mentors that I do have at the moment, they’re not in data science. So that’s probably something I need to work on. I need to find mentors in data science. Would you say that?

Caroline: Yes, definitely. And the other opportunity is to have a reverse mentor, to have a young junior data scientist with a fresh, youthful approach to the market. Reverse mentors are becoming more and more popular every day and they’re giving people fresh ideas and just a different perspective altogether.

Kirill: Okay, that’s really cool. So you still learn from them as well, right?

Caroline: Yes, exactly. You share with them your business ideas and almost get a youthful approach and perspective on them. Quite often, when we’re setting up reverse mentors for the senior clients, what we will try to do is go with the opposite sex as well. For example, if we’ve got the CTO within a big consultancy-type company, we will try to pick a young female data scientist from an FMCG company. So we try to almost go as far out of the spectrum as possible.

Kirill: Wow. I see why you’re doing that, because then you have completely different opinions, world views, and that opens up your eyes sometimes when you have a completely fresh perspective on something.

Caroline: Definitely.

Kirill: Okay, gotcha. Let’s move on to number three. Quick question, how does number three—I can kind of see a little bit of difference, but I’d like you to help me out with this. Three versus seven. Number three was about partnerships and number seven was about industry events and meet-ups. So how are those two different? I’m assuming they are quite linked, right?

Caroline: Yes, they are linked, but partnerships for us is about key contacts within your network that come from specific strong social media brands, conferences, educational organizations or training facilities. So, for example, Contexti has a training facility for R, Python and Hadoop. Therefore they’re a great partnership for me to have because my candidates need training in that space.

Educational—for example, UNSW have a number of great grads, guys coming out with Masters, PhD. I want to know who the hot young talent is, and therefore those guys are the ones that are going to open the doors. And the same for meet-up organizers as well. There are only so many hours in the day. It’s great to have a good contact with each of the meet-ups you’re interested in, so that if you are unable to attend you can still get a great feel for what was discussed and what were the key fresh ideas and action points going ahead.

Kirill: Okay, gotcha. I understand. Personally for me, I think we might have a few partners in terms of who we deal with at SuperDataScience, and who I personally work with, but I think not enough. I think that’s something I can work on as well.

Caroline: Great.

Kirill: Okay, number four, running an event yourself. This is very interesting. I’m very interested in that. I’m not going to spill too many beans at this stage, but that’s something that we’re very interested in. So I’ll just check that one off. I think that one will be good. Number five, podcast and social media. I don’t know how to answer that one. Does that mean—

Caroline: That’s your specialism. (Laughs)

Kirill: Okay, so running a podcast counts as well. Because obviously you don’t have to run a podcast, you can just attend a podcast and be on the podcast as a guest.

Caroline: Of course.

Kirill: Okay. So we can check that one off for you as well then?

Caroline: Yes.

Kirill: I can see why you’re here now. (Laughs) That’s awesome. Number six, LinkedIn weekly goals. I’m definitely doing that. I’m definitely publishing at least once per week, maybe several times. And actually I’m going to comment on this. For those who are looking for jobs out there, this is what really helped me at the time. When I was at Deloitte and then at some point I decided “Okay, time to move on,” I just really revamped my LinkedIn, made it look fantastic, made sure I have 500 connections, because then you get that 500+, and then I started publishing.

I used Hootsuite, that tool to just quickly put in these articles, which was not even my own blog post, I was just finding these articles. There’s another tool you can use to find these articles. If I remember, we will put it in the show notes. You find these articles and then read them, you comment on them and then you put them into your weekly feed for LinkedIn and you publish like two or three updates per week and that’s when I got started. Within a month or two after that, I had so many recruiters contacting me and it was just crazy. That is a really golden piece of advice. I’m really glad you put it into this list.

Caroline: Yeah, LinkedIn is a fantastic tool. And there’s actually a guide on there to see and check that you have a 100% profile. So everybody should go ahead and check that, make sure you update whatever information, photo, reference that you have on your LinkedIn so that everybody can see that and it’s the best reflection of you.

Kirill: Fantastic. I totally agree with that. Definitely make it 100%. Number seven, attending industry events and meet-ups. This is a good one because I was actually very bad at this. I’d get swamped with work and I didn’t attend anything, but just recently in May I went to Open Data Science Conference and I actually met a few of our students there. Hadelin and I presented at the conference, but we also attended it as guests as well, and that was very, very good. Could you comment on that for us? I see for myself why it was good, but your expert opinion – why is it necessary to attend industry events and meet-ups?

Caroline: It’s always great to get the latest information. What you find with technology companies is they often promote or release certain technologies within big events, so if you’re looking at a Mobile World Congress or a CES in Vegas, all the big technology announcements get made at these events. Alongside that, it’s just a fantastic networking opportunity and a chance to learn.

Kirill: Yeah, I totally agree. I couldn’t agree more. It really puts you in a different environment as opposed to—you can be learning at home in front of your computer and learning among other people at a conference where you’re just active all day and you’re getting these insights and they’re all diverse and different, it’s fantastic.

Caroline: Yes. It’s all about shared experience as well, being able to share the pain points and the struggles as well as the success and the opportunities.

Kirill: Yeah, I totally agree. Number eight, blogging. I haven’t written a blog post in a very long time so I probably need to get on top of that one, wouldn’t you say?

Caroline: Mm-hmm.

Kirill: Yeah? Okay. Number nine, produce insights documents.

Actually, when you were talking about that, I realized I do do that. Whenever I release a new course, I try to create like a cheat sheet with the top five tools from this course or from this topic just to help people. So whenever they need to refresh their knowledge, whenever they need to get some guidance on what exactly was in the course or what’s the best thing here, they can actually print it out and put it in front of them on their desk or on their wall. That’s kind of what I do. Would you count that in for insight documents?

Caroline: Fantastic. Yes, I think anything that is presented in an easy to chew format is great.

Kirill: Thank you very much. And number ten, facilitating introductions even if you’re not going to benefit from that. I would say I do that and I’m starting to do that more because through the podcast I’m meeting people and then they want to meet some other people or I even feel sometimes that it’s a good idea for these two people to meet. I’ve only done it like five or so times, but now that you’ve mentioned it, I think I should start doing it more.

Caroline: Definitely. Yeah, good challenges ahead.

Kirill: Okay. Thank you. This has definitely been helpful for me— you’re probably going to send me a bill for this consultation later on, but I hope it’s been helpful for everybody listening as well. Okay, let’s move on. Thank you so much for sharing that. That’s been amazing. Tell us what is the biggest challenge you’ve ever had in your role dealing with data science?

Caroline: I believe the biggest challenge is changing the attitude of business and marketing hiring managers, and also some of the internal stakeholders, the roles that I work on, to focus on data rather than just make it an afterthought. Oftentimes I guess data should be at the core to what we all do, but it’s used or misused, I guess, by individuals as something that they can kind of cherry-pick to support their own business hypothesis.

The other thing that I’d say is that our whole message at FutureYou is around the power to connect without limitation and attitude is the biggest limitation a lot of times when it comes to data, just not seeing the value within the capability of the user data for business gain.

Kirill: Yeah, I can totally see that. And I totally attest to both, especially that first one of changing the whole perspective of businesses around data. It’s a big one. But I think it’s getting better with time. Now data is all over, people are hearing more about AI, machine learning and so on, and businesses are starting to become very cautious. You know how there is two things that drive people? There is pain and pleasure, or fear and passion.

We want to see businesses driven by the pleasure part, the excitement that they get about data, but at least for now, more and more businesses are picking up just because of being driven by pain, by the fear of having the pain if they lose their business, or they get disrupted, or their competitors do do data and they don’t do data. But that’s at least the starting point. Would you agree with that sentiment?

Caroline: Yes, definitely. And that relates really well to the whole

power without limitation.

Kirill: On the flipside, we’ve talked about the challenges. What is a recent win that you’ve had in the space of data in your role which you can share with us?

Caroline: Sure. So, last year I did an exclusive team build at Optus, which is a big telco here in Australia. So that was an exclusive team build of the insights division, so a number of fantastic roles, and I actually supported that business with over 20 people within a 3-month period, which was a huge challenge. I did a lot of testing of candidates, assessing skills, problem-solving, capability interviews, and essentially completed the task within a three month period, which was really exciting.

Kirill: Wow, fantastic. Congratulations on that. That sounds like an epic challenge and that’s really, really cool. Okay, here’s a good one. We’re kind of getting into that rapid-fire stage of questions. What is your one most favourite thing about working with data science?

Caroline: I would say it’s that we are the future of business. The individuals that I work with inspire me daily with their fresh thinking. They have creative ideas and their ability to detect new opportunities as well.

Kirill: Okay. That’s fair. I can totally agree with that. I’m also very inspired, always, working with data scientists and indeed they are building some amazing things and I’m just there to help sometimes, so it’s really exciting as well. And this is something that I’d really like to get your opinion on. Where do you think the field of data science or analytics is going and what should our listeners look into to prepare for the future?

Caroline: I believe that data is going to soon have a seat at the C-suite table within most businesses, so there will be Chief Data Officers getting that opportunity at the highest level to share insight. If we can utilize even a quarter of the information that we have, we can change the way people think altogether. The advancements in visualization technology particularly excite me as my main passion, having worked in events and conferences for a long time and obviously having come from a performing arts background, is the ability to effectively communicate data to non-data people. So I think that’s something that if the listeners are trying to prepare for the future, that’s one thing they should focus on.

Kirill: And what do you think is the best first step, or the most impactful step somebody can make in that direction?

Caroline: I would say to be honest with yourself about your capability, where and how you can improve in that sense, because there is so much you can do and we can all improve our presentation skills no matter what. I have 21 adjectives that summarize what a great data storyteller is, so I’d be happy to again share that link with your listeners.

Kirill: That would be fantastic. And if you can give us an insight from your work in the space of recruiting, I’ve always had this question: What is the difference in demand for people who are very good at data science and who are very good in analytics, versus people who are very good at data science, but also on top of that have presentation skills? What is the difference in demand and is there a substantial difference in the level of remuneration that these two different levels of experience can expect?

Caroline: Yes. So, remuneration-wise, for example, here in Sydney you can see a $20k to $30k uplift for someone who is an effective presenter and has the ability to build rapport quickly with stakeholders. I would say in terms of the difference in the number of roles, essentially a data scientist who is a strategic presenter and is able to build relationships would probably fill three in five roles, the other two of those being the more technical, hands-on, perhaps more introverted role than reporting in to someone else who is able to present the insights.

Kirill: Okay. Wow, that’s a fantastic rundown. So, three out of five. So you have a much bigger chance of getting an opportunity if you are that presenter, if you have those presenting skills.

So it’s definitely something people should look into. Thank you so much. It just puts some numbers to the problem, because a lot of people realize that there is this challenge, but $20k to $30k uplift in salary plus three out of five versus two out of five opportunities, I think that should be substantial enough for people to really consider this and start thinking about how they can improve these skills or start learning these skills if they haven’t yet. Any career aspirations or inspiring people that push you to better yourself at what you’re doing?

Caroline: I would just say Sydney Minassian, who we spoke about earlier. He’s probably the main person that influences my career here in Sydney.

Kirill: Yeah, and we went into that extensively. All right, thank you so much. I think that brings us to the end of the questions I had for you. I think we had a great discussion. Thank you so much for coming on the show. How can our listeners contact you, follow you or find you if they’re interested in learning more about your career or even getting in touch in terms of recruiting? Because you did mention you’re in Sydney and Melbourne, plus you’re encouraging data scientists to move from abroad. We have people from 198 countries listening to this podcast with all different sorts of experiences and walks of life, so I’m pretty sure there’s lots of them who would love to get in touch with you.

Caroline: Yes, of course. The best way to contact me is through LinkedIn, so Caroline McColl. You’ll find me there on LinkedIn. I work for FutureYou, so you can also check out FutureYou’s website and our blogs and also the videos of our events on our website as well.

Kirill: Gotcha. And just on that, it reminds me of another question I wanted to ask you. How difficult is it to invite somebody from overseas to come to Australia? Because obviously there are visa challenges and these aspects. How successful are you at bringing people from overseas to come work in Australia?

Caroline: Pretty successful. Data science is definitely an in-demand skill here in Australia, so I guess in terms of jumping through those visa loopholes, most large global businesses are able to overcome those quite easily in order to get decent data science talent.

Kirill: Okay, cool. So our listeners shouldn’t be put off by the fact that maybe they’re not in Australia but they want to be in Australia. They can still get in touch with you and that’s something you guys can discuss going forward.

Caroline: Yes.

Kirill: Okay, fantastic. That’s a great way to finish off this podcast. I have one last question for you: What is your one favourite book that you can recommend to our listeners to help them become better data scientists or analysts?

Caroline: I would say “How to Win Friends and Influence People” is a fantastic self-help business book. It has great ideas on relationship building, influence and negotiation in a corporate context. So I would advise reading that book to anyone.

Kirill: Fantastic. Thank you. I’ve actually had some friends who read it and actually some guests already recommended it here on the podcast. I haven’t read it myself yet but it’s something that I want to do. “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” Thank you again so much, Caroline, for coming on the show and sharing all these insights. I’m sure you will be bombarded with LinkedIn requests as soon as this is live.

Caroline: Fantastic. I look forward to it. Thank you so much for the opportunity, Kirill. We will continue to work together.

Kirill: Okay, thank you. Bye. So there you have it. That was Caroline McColl, Associate Partner at FutureYou Executive Recruitment. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Personally my favourite part was of course the ten steps for data scientists. I really liked how that gives you a definitive framework which you just need to follow in order to accomplish a great career, in order to build a great career for yourself and bring value to the world and bring value to others.

The other part I liked about it really is that it’s not just about you, it’s also about how you can give back to the community, how you can connect other people, how you can bounce ideas with others. And I think that’s ultimately what we’re doing. We’re driving the world forward, we’re driving analytics forward, we’re driving technology forward. And it’s important to not always just think about how you can progress your own career, but also how you can help others, because it’s just amazing to help each other out in any case.

And as you probably noticed from the episode, there are lots of amazing materials that Caroline has shared. They’re all available on the SuperDataScience website. Just head on to www.www.superdatascience.com/69, and there you can find and download all of the materials that were mentioned on this podcast. And you can also find a link to Caroline’s LinkedIn, so make sure to connect. Even if you’re not looking for a position right now, it’s always good to build connections. If you are looking for a position, then definitely Caroline is the go-to person for you. This could really change your career.

As you heard, you don’t have to be from Australia in order for them to potentially be able to help you out with looking for opportunities, so that’s something that you could discuss with Caroline further. And moreover, I urge you to share this episode with somebody you know who might be interested in a career in data science or might be open to connecting with Caroline and that could be your first action that you take from today in those ten steps about facilitating introduction between people. And on that note, thank you so much for taking the time today. I really appreciate you being part of this data science movement and I can’t wait to see you on the next episode. Until then, happy analyzing.