Kirill: This is episode number 27, with Vice President of Finance Aziz Mamatov.
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Welcome to the SuperDataScience podcast. My name is Kirill Eremenko, data science coach and lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you inspiring people and ideas to help you build your successful career in data science. Thanks for being here today and now let’s make the complex simple.
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Welcome welcome everybody to the SuperDataScience podcast. Super excited to see you on the show. Today we’ve got an unexpected guest, somebody who actually reached out to me to talk about finance and about life in Silicon Valley, Aziz Mamatov. Aziz has completed an MBA with INSEAD, which is one of the two most prestigious MBA providers in the world. INSEAD is a European-based one. And he actually contacted Yaw Tan, who was in episode number 10 of the SuperDataScience podcast, and Yaw then connected Aziz and me.
And it was really funny because Aziz also speaks Russian and when we jumped on the Skype call to talk about the financial situation in the world and how data is disrupting the space of finance, Aziz has some amazing thoughts about that by the way. When we jumped on the call, it was as if we had known each other for ages. And it was a really good chat and we connected instantly and we decided to record this podcast for you guys. So I think you will learn quite a bit from here. Specifically, Aziz has some interesting thoughts around how data is changing the world of finance and how previously it was all focused around regulations and about auditing and accounting and tax accounting and all of these branches of the finance space of any company was heavily focused on regulation. Whereas now, there’s all these data science tools that help you actually derive useful value and different companies should start looking at finance from a different lens. And that’s one thing we talked about.
And the other thing, and this is what we started the podcast off with, is Aziz’s career. And I think that because we are a career-focused platform and we want to help everybody build their careers, whether or not you’re looking for a new job or you just want to enhance your existing career, or you are a manager or owner of a company, we want to help you succeed in that. It was a great addition to our library of podcasts because Aziz actually went step by step through his experience and through the companies that he’s worked with in his life. And I’m looking at his LinkedIn right now, there’s like 5 or 7 different companies, big ones as well, world famous companies like Ernst & Young, or it used to be Arthur Andersen, I think, was one he mentioned. And then World Bank, Morgan Stanley, quite a few big names have come up in his career. And he actually went step by step through them, and I think you can take away some mentality about thinking about your career from his example.
So I highly encourage you to actually, if you’re in front of your computer, which you’re probably not, you’re probably in somewhere in the car or something like that, but that’s fine. But if you are in front of your computer, or if you get to a computer later on, open up Aziz’s LinkedIn so you can actually follow along as he’s walking through these companies that he’s worked for, and it will help you see how he’s jumped along in his career and where it has taken him. So I think it can give you some ideas and thoughts about how to think about your own career.
And you can get the URL to his LinkedIn at www.www.superdatascience.com/27. And now without any further ado, I bring to you Vice President of Finance and Sourceeasy, Aziz Mamatov.
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Hello everybody, welcome to the SuperDataScience podcast. Today I’ve got a very unexpected and a very interesting guest, Aziz Mamatov. Hi Aziz, how’re you going today?
Aziz: Hey Kirill! Good, how are you?
Kirill: I’m well, thank you. And where are you calling in from?
Aziz: I’m calling from sunny San Francisco, the capital of innovation of the world.
Kirill: That’s fantastic. We were just chatting with Aziz just now, and he said, ask him what the weather was, like 15 degrees, and I thought “Fahrenheit? No way, it’s not Fahrenheit. It’s 15 degrees Celsius, so slowly, slowly getting through the winter, right?
Aziz: Yeah. Actually we don’t have a winter, but it’s been raining pretty heavily lately, and it’s good. Because we had a drought for the last 4 years, and now we have the biggest rainfall for the last 10 years or something. But today is sunny, and everything is cool.
Kirill: Wow, wow. That’s huge. 4 years of drought. Well, good to hear that it’s slowly, slowly ended, that drought. For our listeners out there, I just wanted to tell the story of how Aziz and I met. It was funny. We actually met for the first time like just now. Like 20 minutes ago. And Aziz said that he had listened to some of my podcasts, taken some of the courses, and then he just wanted to get in touch. And so he connected with one of my friends, Yaw, who’s also been on the podcast, and we got in touch with Aziz, and as we met 20 minutes ago, it really felt like we knew each other for ages, right?
Aziz: Yeah, it did. Actually I had the same sensation with another guy, I’m not sure if you follow UFC, MMA fighting?
Kirill: A little bit.
Aziz: A little bit. So there is a famous fighter, his name is Khabib Nurmagomedov. And he’s like the best Russian fighter, I think one of the most Russian athletes right now. And like I met him here, he’s training here. And I looked at him, and I had the sensation that I know him for years. And he kind of looks at me like “Do I know you?” And I realised yeah, I’m looking at him like he’s my best friend, or relative, or whatever. And he’s looking at me like, like he looks at me and he realises that he doesn’t know. He looks like he sees me first time. And then I kind of realised yeah, because like you see them, you follow them, they’re in your — whatever, dreams, and like you think about them. And like the same with you. Like I listen to you so much time, when I look at you, hey dude, like how are you?
Kirill: Yeah. But I’ve got to say you’re also a very personable person, so when we’re chatting, it’s very easy to get along. So it was interesting to meet up. Thanks a lot for that e-mail you sent through. Aziz sent me an e-mail explaining his view on the finance situation in the world and how data is disrupting the finance space, and I found it extremely interesting, and without hesitation I invited Aziz over to the podcast. That’s probably what we’re going to be focusing on. So if any of you folks out there are in the space of finance or in the space of management, I think you’ll get a lot from this podcast. To kick us off, Aziz, give us a bit of your background. What did you study and where are you working now? What’s your role?
Aziz: Yeah, so I guess like any person from Europe or Central Asia, usually when you say “background,” it’s where you’re from. I’m from Uzbekistan, which was a part of the Soviet Union, and that’s how we can consider each other compatriots and we speak kind of the same language – Russian. Yeah, so that’s why I probably like familiarity. So I was born and raised in Uzbekistan, and then 20 years ago I studied in the States in the great State of Alabama. I did my Bachelors in Molecular Biology and Biochemistry. And back then I entered a PhD program, and I decided that I’m not going to do it because back then the scientists, the engineers, they were not a sexy profession. So I thought, “Hey, I need to get a proper suit and sound important.”
Kirill: “Hey, I need to get a proper sexy profession,” right?
Aziz: Exactly.
Kirill: You were after the sexy professions.
Aziz: Of course. I wanted to get money, I wanted to get fame, I wanted to get recognition from my peers and not sit like a lab rat somewhere. That’s what I thought. So lo and behold, I joined Arthur Andersen, which was a fantastic “Big Five” firm then, and I spent 7 years there. I joined in Uzbekistan and then I worked in Russia, in France and Kazakhstan. So I worked like in 4 countries. It was a great career. It was pretty tough. I mean, it was really tough. And then Arthur Andersen kind of went bankrupt. There was a huge scandal with Enron. Some of our listeners will probably know. And then I had a couple of stints at industrial companies: Phillip Morris, AES, they all were huge public companies. And before I went to MBA I worked with the World Bank in Russia.
Kirill: Oh, wow!
Aziz: Yeah, I did. It sounds a little glorious, but it’s a pretty simple bureaucratic job. It’s one of the simplest jobs I ever had in terms of complexity. It wasn’t very technical. So, in 2008, I entered INSEAD MBA program. It’s one of the top MBA programs in the world. It’s based in France and Singapore. I studied there for a year and in December 2008 I graduated and there was nothing. There was a huge financial crisis, no jobs, especially for MBAs, so it was great times. Oh, my God.
I didn’t have a job because my job offer was no more job offer, so I went back to Uzbekistan and spent like a couple of months there to gather myself together. And then I joined a fintech start-up based in London which was providing loans to MBA students from INSEAD and a couple of other universities. INSEAD alums organized it. They were South African lads. I was like employee number 4. They’re still active. Their name is Prodigy Finance. They’re based in South Africa. And now when I look back, I wish they moved to Silicon Valley because they would be a billion dollar company. Yes, I think so, because they have all the resource for success.
Kirill: Wow, that’s very cool. So just to clarify, this is a start-up that gave out money to MBA graduates but you joined them as an MBA graduate. You actually joined the start-up and you became part of the team?
Aziz: Yes. So they gave me a loan, and it was a really good loan. I was a citizen of Uzbekistan, I could not get any loans from anywhere. So they gave me a secured loan because alums were investing in these alternative investments where they would get returns from loans to folks like me. So the credit score, or whatever they did in Excel, showed fantastic results. The predictive analytics that those lads did in Excel promised like low rates of non-payments, so it was a no-brainer. Plus there’s like a social element in it, so people loved it and it grew.
Kirill: And I guess also MBA students inherently have a lower risk of non-repayment just because these are people who invested into their education and who have a certain perception of the world, who have a higher chance of actually starting a business or doing something that will help them find the finance to repay the loan. I guess that’s another selling point for the company as well.
Aziz: Yeah, I would say more. Usually top MBA students are hell-bent individuals on career and success in a classical understanding of the world. The majority of the people I’ve seen, including myself, were basically striving for career, for good money, for approval from peers and whatnot. Of course, for such hell-bent and driven individuals, it’s like a perfect path to success, at least in an average management role. (Laughs)
Kirill: Yeah. Yeah, I totally understand. Alright, so you stayed there for just over a year?
Aziz: Yeah, it was a year program. It was in Paris, so I spent all my time in Paris, which was like another experience by itself. And then I went to London. I worked with the company for more than a year and then they decided to go back to South Africa because they hated the weather and they felt that they could’ve done their job from South Africa better than from London. And so I left and I immediately joined the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Kazakhstan. It’s basically a fund that manages like $40 billion in assets. Like, you have these Kazakhstani-based public companies and I became a CFO of alternative assets arm. So, basically the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Kazakhstan opened a fund of funds – $600 million – and they were investing in private equity funds, primarily in Russia and Kazakhstan. The aim was to create an alternative investment platform – private equities, venture funds, maybe even hedge funds – in Kazakhstan and maybe Russia. So I was working there as CFO for 3 years.
Kirill: Yeah, gotcha. That’s really cool. That’s already a huge position. Where did you go from there? Even higher?
Aziz: Yeah, of course. I ended up in Silicon Valley. (Laughs) So, yeah. In 2014 and ’15, things started changing and I was not content with the job. I don’t think it was interesting. It was quasi-governmental and it’s Kazakhstan, so not a lot of knowledge, not a lot of things that you can learn and it’s pretty political. So I felt dissatisfaction at my job and I didn’t see myself learning or growing there. And then there was a Silicon Valley lure, like all these Facebooks and you name them, right? I had a green card so my wife and I and my kids decided to pack up and move to Silicon Valley. So, I was at a conference with my Sovereign Wealth Fund job. I was shipped to the conference in San Francisco and I loved it, like the weather, the bridge, whatever. Some of my relatives lived here, so I decided, “Okay, that’s it. I’m going to join Facebook or Google and don my suit and tie and become the next tech entrepreneur.”
Kirill: Mark Zuckerberg.
Aziz: Exactly. (Laughs)
Kirill: Yeah, gotcha. The American dream.
Aziz: Yes.
Kirill: Alright, so how did that turn out? Did you put down your suit and tie?
Aziz: Yes, actually—well, for the time being. So I moved here in 2014, so it’s like less than two years ago, and it’s been testing times. It’s a separate discussion. Yeah, it was testing times. I had a couple of consulting stints and everything and then I was like slowly realizing that, “Dude, I changed the country and I’m changing the industry as well,” because I was in financial services, somewhere like in international backwaters. And now I’m kind of tech—it’s a different call, different everything.
So it was slowly dawning on me that I’m in the tech land, I changed the industry. It’s hard to change the industry and profession and country at the same time. It’s really hard. I was basically taken aback. I didn’t realize that it would take so much effort and even money to get back to speed. So I had a couple of consulting gigs because at the end of the day, finance is not that complicated. And I was always thinking like, “What’s going on? What’s going on here?” So many people want to hit the Silicon Valley. Everyone in the world and in America basically try to learn the job in Silicon Valley first and then in New York, so the competition is ridiculous. And even though you can apply to any job, like via the Internet, there are like hundreds of residents. And if you don’t know somebody, if you don’t have references or somehow outstanding resume which fits exactly the profile, then it’s pretty hard.
Kirill: But you eventually found the job at Morgan Stanley, and now you’re Vice President of Finance in quite a large company as well, right?
Aziz: It’s not, it’s a startup.
Kirill: It’s a startup?
Aziz: It is a start-up, yeah. I don’t like these titles, like VP Finance. Sometimes I think like, “Why are there titles for start-ups?” Maybe because of some legal reasons. I’m not sure. I still need to understand. Before I was kind of fighting for titles, but now I hate titles so much because I’ve spent so much time on the corporate ladder that it doesn’t make sense to me any more.
Kirill: Yeah. But you’ve got to give us something. I just want our listeners to really understand the journey that you’ve been through. It was great how you described all of these gigs that you’ve been a part of in detail, and I think a lot of our listeners who are focused on their career can take away from that. That you’ve never stood still. Whenever you felt like you cannot learn more, you cannot propel your career further, you’re getting kind of stuck, you weren’t hesitant to move forward.
Also, I want our listeners to see where that has led you. I understand you don’t really like titles, and you’re trying to be very modest here but you are the Vice President of Finance of a startup. And you said you had like 60 people working in the team, right? So it’s not like a five-person company. Is that correct?
Aziz: Yeah, it is.
Kirill: Your choice of not being afraid to move on with your career, to explore new places, move to different countries and change companies has actually led you to a great place. It’s a lot of experience that you’ve had and also the actual current role that you’re in. Would you say that it’s something that you enjoy doing?
Aziz: Yes, I do. It’s a great thrill. I guess I’ll get back to it in a bit. I was thinking, like, we’re going to be chatting, and the majority of your podcast is more or less technical in nature. And I was thinking, like, what can I add? Technique is very important, but I guess you need to land a career in data science or in business analytics or in some other place where you’re living now and probably many people need some kind of inspiration or advice on what to expect when you change career, because many of the data science people are career changers. I feel that this is something that we can speak about, especially since I cannot add too many technical nuances or details about data science.
Kirill: Yeah, I totally agree. That’s a very, very important part because building a career is not just about learning the technical aspects of the job, it’s also about appreciating what it takes to get the career that you want. So I’d love to talk more about that. We’ve got kind of two topics that we want to cover, so career building and also I would love for you to share your views on the current situation in finance. Let’s start with the career building. If you can give us your tips and hacks and ideas and recommendations for career building, and then we’ll move on to your perception of what’s happening in the world of finance. Does that sound like a good plan?
Aziz: Yeah, sure. I liked the podcast with your brother. He was pretty good at explaining how he’s going to choose the career and he was not preaching or anything. And I really liked that. He was saying like, “Choose something that makes sense to you.” He was kind of quoting David Pink—well, not David but Mr Pink who wrote a book about what’s important and I agree with it. Basically three pillars – it’s mastery, autonomy, purpose.
Kirill: This is a good start. We’re getting to the golden nuggets. So, you agree with my brother – mastery, autonomy, purpose. And how have you applied those principles in your career building?
Aziz: I probably have not. I was just chasing something. I was chasing money and recognition, you know, because this is what Generation X has been doing, right? I missed couple of years to join the millennials, so I can properly call myself a Generation X-er. And then you have to pick whatever has been on the table. So the capitalism came to us, all the new companies, the growth, and we just joined the hordes of capitalists, people in ties, marketers, financiers, whatever. But I guess it’s just something that you need to select based on those three pillars.
But again, how do you select what you like? The majority of people don’t know what they want. And for sure they don’t want to spend their time in the office doing some lame stuff. There’s another thing that I was thinking. Great things are pretty hard. Imagine that you didn’t have any needs, any financial needs, and everything was kind of satisfied. Then you would have nothing to do, no aspirations, and everything would be answered.
But when you want to achieve something, then it comes too hard. Like, you did martial arts, right? Or you’re doing it. And it’s hard; the first couple of years is just painful. But then you start enjoying it and it’s like, “Hey!” and there’s a mastery coming or maybe some kind of purpose, whatever. So what I’m trying to say is, remember those but learn cold hard skills like statistics, math, physics, programming. (Laughs) This will be useful.
Kirill: Good point. And those are skills that last through time, right? Those are skills that get outdated a bit, maybe the new algorithms pop up in statistics, or modelling principles and so on, but generally speaking, you’re setting yourself up for the future because you are going to keep leveraging those skills for years to come.
Aziz: Yeah, you know, like, we’re talking about career right now like not a profession where you kind of work for someone and you get paid, or you sell some kind of product. So I’m not talking about musicians, artists or sportsmen. It’s different. I’m not going to touch on that. So if you follow some kind of profession, then that’s what I’m thinking, like not even the latest fad, but the latest foundations in technology. Technology is going to change the world, software is in the world. So if you want to be part of it, do it.
And then decide what you want to do. Do you want to be a developer or do you want to be a business person? It’s up to you, but at least have those skills. So my advice is, learn hard skills, and I call them programming, math, including statistics, which is a branch of math, and then work a bit and then decide what you want to do with your life in profession I’m talking about.
Kirill: And that’s very in line with what you’ve illustrated in your example, right? You sound like you’ve set yourself a goal at the very start after university, that “I want to be Vice President of Finance or something,” and you just worked towards that. You were always experimenting with your career and moving around the place, moving around different roles, and learning what you like as you go along.
Aziz: Actually not. I was a finance person and I’m still a finance guy and I’m defined by this profession. Still. This is something that pays me money. I kind of have a certain mastery in it and I still don’t have a purpose yet in this profession. And maybe not as much autonomy as I want. And probably why I’m doing data science — okay, let’s call it data science or business analytics — is because I want to probably achieve more autonomy and more mastery and maybe will come to some kind of purpose as a result of that.
But I’m a finance guy through and through, and there are so many people around who are finance people like me, like accountants, investment bankers, financial analysts. The profession is changing right now, and while I sit here in Silicon Valley where all questions are asked, there’s nothing set in stone, everything is changing constantly and people adopt the technologies and everything and they make money off of it.
So it’s not like, “Hey, let’s just adopt something new because it’s cool.” No! Like, they make money out of it, and I sit here and realize that financial profession is up to huge change. My friends, you better change and start doing something right now.
Kirill: Interesting. It’s a very good segue into what you wrote in the e-mail, that you’re seeing these changes. I’ll probably mention just one of the things that really struck me. What you said was that originally finance and things like accounting, auditing, tax, they were designed or being executed in companies with a lot of focus on regulation rather than the actual analytics, the actual value that can be derived from accounting and from all of this bookkeeping and all of these financial aspects that are present in running any company. You can derive a lot of value from them, but originally this was all being created with a heavy focus on the regulatory environment.
And now you’re saying that things are changing, that companies are starting to realize that there is data, there are tools to interact with this data, and there is value to be derived from that data. And that is one of the things that is disrupting the finance space right now. Could you elaborate on that a little bit more, please?
Aziz: Yes, it’s such a huge topic and it’s just brewing in my mind right now and I’m looking for directions to get more information. So probably what I’m telling you now is going to change in like 6 months or a year. So, because it’s brewing inside me, like it’s always struck me. I’m a Certified Accountant of the UK. I became ACCA like 10 years ago. And what struck me is that how codified the profession is, how not much actual technical knowledge and logic there is – like, not much – and how much of some strange exotic exuberant information there is. So it’s not like a lawyer profession, but still they put so much unnecessary stuff in the accounting profession that it struck me.
And as a result, what you produce is some kind of backwards looking statement. Like, after months of work, after sweating over some kind of reconciliations in accounting, you produce “Hey, here’s the financials for the last year comparing versus our budget and versus previous years. Here you go.” So what exactly does this information tell you? Yeah, it tells you the past up to a T and it lets your auditors check your numbers say, “Hey, they did not make mistakes, so they’re kind of reliable and trustworthy bean counters.” But it doesn’t tell you anything.
So how does it help other stakeholders, how does it help your shareholders? How does it help the people who work in your organization? It does not. Like, sales people, marketing people, production people, they had no idea what are they doing and what kind of results are they having. Like, they were the last in the queue to be presented with a financial result because it didn’t matter anymore. It was created not for the people but for compliance purposes. The accounting profession became an extremely cautious, extremely careful profession. Like, the cost of mistake was so great that the downsides were huge while the upsides were few. So that’s why it became like a bean counting profession, where you basically count what happened in the past and you do not care much about the future.
Kirill: That’s a very interesting point, and I’ll agree with you to some extent. But at the same time, there are elements of accounting that work with predicting return on investment, forecasting what the next 3 or 5 years are going to look like in terms of revenue. What do you think about all that?
Aziz: Oh my God. (Laughs) You should see those valuations, especially those—like, when Tesla bought Sun Solar or—
Kirill: SolarCity.
Aziz: SolarCity, yeah. So, there was a really great blog post by a professor from Columbia or some other university based in New York. I don’t know, have you read it?
Kirill: No, I haven’t seen it. No.
Aziz: Okay. So he was basically discussing this merger and how it was done. So, basically, Tesla acquired this company and it’s the same shareholder. There’s like no sense in making this acquisition. And the investment bankers, they did some kind of valuation where they proved that this thing made sense. It was like all kinds of conflicts of interest, and especially what they produced was like ridiculously simple with some kind of drivers and assumptions which can prove any point.
And this is what has exactly been done by investment banks. So they create some spreadsheets and put some assumptions there and say, “Hey, your share may be worth anything from $1 to $1,000.” And here we go, you know. (Laughs) And you’re like, “Really? Really?!” It’s so simple, it’s so unbelievably simple that you would be totally surprised.
But you know how much the online training companies charge for those valuation courses? Like, they charge you thousands of dollars. You know what’s interesting? If you want to learn those skills like discounted cash flow valuation, three statement comp analysis, you know, all the kind of buzzwords from the investment banking world, and you’re like, “Oh, how can I do it?” And then you go to a website “Breaking Into Wall Street” which kind of discusses how to join the glamorous hordes of investment bankers, get like exorbitant amount of money and prestige, and then you’re like, “Okay, I need to take this course,” and this course costs like $500. Like, that’s the cheapest one. It’s pretty good, but it’s only an Excel-based course. It’s nothing in complexity compared to whatever your course is or any other course in data science or programming or statistics. There’s nothing like it, not even close to it, and you’re paying this money, and to other providers you would pay even more. You see, I’m talking about facts, and something is wrong there and it’s ripe for a change.
Kirill: Interesting. What else do you see in the finance industry that our listeners should be aware of that’s being disrupted by data science?
Aziz: Yeah, so before, because you had to produce impeccable financial reports, according to certain standards and procedures, and had to undertake the auditors with you and nothing was automated, you had to install certain systems like SAP or Scala or Oracle, whatever. And they might be great systems, but they were so rigid and so non-user friendly because they were designed not by — Steve Jobs, who was like a product manager who wanted to create products that would be user friendly, but they were creating enterprise product which is supposed to be ugly and complicated—
Kirill: (Laughs) “Which is supposed to be ugly” – that should be a quote.
Aziz: Of course. Of course, because some people, IT folks in the rooms without any windows would be serving those unbelievably outdated enterprise software solutions, right? And we had to endure them. I mean, I had no idea. I was like, “How do you get this report?” “Oh, you should write the script somewhere and then it will spit out something to your Excel and then you need to work with it.” “Oh, really?! Oh, my God. What if I want to do it like that?” “Oh, dude, it’s not possible. You need to write some kind of service order to your IT people and some tied guy will come over and say he’s going to do it within two weeks or something.” You’re like, “Oh my God.”
So, what I want to say is that enterprise, accounting solutions and finance solutions were run by those behemoths, right? And your accountants and finance people had no idea how the information is collected, what’s the point of information collection, how it is stored, how you can retrieve it and how you can manipulate it. So it wasn’t just a black box from where you were given a couple of scripts and you could produce some strange reports to do your work efficiently. So, the majority of work has been done in Excel, which is a total anarchy.
Kirill: Interesting. So you’re saying that—correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m getting from you that these huge enterprise solutions like SAP, for instance, they’re outdated and with time they’re going to be replaced with newer, more agile software.
Aziz: Yes. They will. There was an interview by Mr Andreessen. I don’t know his name. He is one of the founders of the most famous VC in the world, based in Silicon Valley, Andreessen Horowitz. I really love that interview. I didn’t know if I sent it to you or not. It’s a fantastic interview. And among those, he was saying, “SAP is software made for companies back from the 50s which have technology back from the 60s and the software back from the 70s.” It’s like so outdated and not helping that something should be done with it.
And now we have a whole host of solutions which are coming to the floor. It shocked me. So what’s happening now is that before it was enterprise solutions, which were kind of sifting through to the consumers. So enterprise were adopting the modern solutions and then the consumers would get a glimpse of those solutions. But now it’s a different world. It’s like consumers get the solutions first and then enterprises adopt them.
And we’re talking about Box, AWS, you name it. And because the Cloud technology and the UX design and many other things like the programming, all this ecology and infrastructure became so developed which allowed for huge collaboration, for huge efficiencies in the developmental world and in security and in Cloud. And for users to actually be able to use those solutions and kind of change them as they wish, to tailor them to their needs, we have those solutions which are adopted first by small companies and then they’re coming and becoming the enterprise solutions. So I think the same is happening right now in the finance world.
Kirill: Interesting. Very interesting. So where would you recommend our listeners to focus their attention if they’re either already in the space of finance, or they’re looking into that space? What do you think they should be aware of and should prepare for in the future?
Aziz: I think the modern finance—I don’t like the word executive, but a finance manager – should kind of know three things: one is accounting, basically like what is a system of double entry and what is a P&L balance sheet and cash flow, and finance, so what’s a discounted cash flow. And it’s so simple. Like, you can learn it within one year, no problem, or maybe half a year. You, Kirill, can probably learn it within a month. Really! It’s a no-brainer.
Kirill: I actually studied that for my master’s degree, so I’m quite aware of the double entry system and all those things. And I agree, if somebody is studying data science, it’s not hard to learn finance. Not taking merit away from the people who study finance, but it’s just so logical. It’s great in the sense that it’s logical. So if you can study data science, you can master finance no problem. If you’re interested, definitely check it out. Don’t be afraid of all the uncertainty that a new degree brings to you.
Aziz: Yeah, you can learn it no problem. Just find a nice course and do it. So that’s one domain. The second domain to me is kind of understanding of the data, where it comes from, where it is stored and how you can use it, so how you can manipulate it, how you can store it in repositories and how you can take it using the SQL scripts, and then how you can process it using like regression or any other statistical tools you have.
So this is something that finance people should know, maybe not all the steps, but at least they should be aware that this is how it’s done and they should be able to ask legitimate requests from data scientists or software engineers.
And the third one is—I would say this is like a project management, and I’m still kind of trying to understand what is it—like, we all understand the business processes and all these lines like who does what, separation of views, authorization, who are the documented peers, life cycle of the document, and the walkthroughs and whatever. So I think people should understand that, like how to formulize the business processes, how they’re formulized, how do you read all those schemas of the business processes. And also, something from that area as well, it’s like project management or whatever you name it – Agile or whatever. I don’t understand this word yet, but project management in whatever form it is. So I would recommend everyone focusing on those three pillars and this will help tremendously.
Kirill: Interesting. So just to sum up, if you’re looking to build your career—and this has been a great podcast, we’re really focusing on career building this time. It’s very interesting. So if you’re interested in getting to a career in finance management or being an executive in the space of finance, then there’s three pillars you need to focus on.
Of course, first one would be accounting and finance, naturally. I actually think that’s very good acumen for anybody in the business world, whatever level. If you’re in a managerial position, it’s always a good thing to know because that will help you plan your budgets and all your expenses and so on if you’re in charge of a department and if you have your own business, like, if you’re an entrepreneur. That’s also a very valuable set of skills to have.
Second domain that you should focus on is the actual data science side of things, so understanding data and understanding what tools you have and how you can apply them. I agree, that will give you a good edge, a competitive edge over your peers or over other companies who are not applying those data science tools to their finances.
And finally, some project management skills. Of course, they are extremely necessary. You’ve got the Agile method, you’ve got Waterfall methods and other methods and other software to help you with your project management. So, very interesting combination of three skills. So, Aziz, right now I’m taking that you’re mostly focused on developing your data science side of things. Is that correct?
Aziz: Yes. I can’t say I’m focusing. I’m aware of it and I’m trying to spend like an hour a day at least to do it. But I’m realizing that I need to spend a day or maybe more, maybe a week and just do it without interruption. But I’m spending time on it, so it’s brewing inside me, and yeah, that’s what I’m doing now.
Kirill: I think that’s actually a very good approach. I think a lot of people can learn from that. Yes, sometimes it’s worthwhile actually sitting down and doing something for a whole day or even a whole week. But an hour a day, that is just golden. Personally, I’m taking a course now on exponential thinking and entrepreneurship, and I wish I had not the dedication – but more the commitment to actually spend an hour a day. I try to spend one or two hours a day, but sometimes I skip a day or so. I’ve only gotten into that course just recently.
Another one is language. When you’re learning a language, it’s the same thing. For instance, I’m learning Czech now, and when you learn a language, if you spend an hour a day for a year, you will be fluent in that language a year later. It’s just about the commitment and finding the time. So I think you’ve got the right approach. Just keep going with that. I think you’re on the right track. So what are you currently studying in terms of data science?
Aziz: I’m taking your courses. So I’m kind of between two courses now. One is introductory Python. I have interesting courses. I think other finance people may appreciate it. So I’ve Data Science A to Z. I’ve become a product manager. This is something that I’m thinking about a lot and I think that MBA should be replaced by product management maybe. Then I have Data Science and Machine Learning, and SQL Database Design, it’s your course as well. And we’ve SQL Boot Camp and I’m planning to probably purchase your brother’s business processes course.
Kirill: Yeah, that’s also a good course to look into. Alright, so that’s quite an interesting suite of data science and other courses that you’re working with. It kind of brings me to the next question I had. How do you apply data science currently in your role? What do you use data science for as the Vice President of Finance?
Aziz: I actually don’t because we don’t have sophisticated systems and we’re using QuickBooks Online and we’re not capturing data yet. So we’re developing a platform which will automate design and garment items manufacturing. This will be a platform, but right now we have a running business which is basically production of fashion items offshore and the business is run. And it’s a lucrative business, it’s a huge business around the globe and we’re trying to capture data and automate it. So there’s lots of automation to be done.
And once the platform is going to be there, bits and parts of it, then we’re going to have lots of information to capture and then we can apply whatever data science there is. But right now I have my QuickBooks stuff and I’m basically playing with them using Pivot Charts in Excel.
Kirill: Okay, gotcha. So basically you’re kind of learning all this data science stuff in preparation for what’s to come. So even though you’re not applying data science, or you don’t have capacity to apply data science right now in your company, you’re anticipating the change and disruption that this field is going to bring and you’re already preparing for it in advance. Is that about right?
Aziz: Yes, I am. I actually had a meetup recently. I was thinking how to create my next stack because QuickBooks was not serving my needs anymore. It’s a very simple program. It’s really Agile but for small businesses. I was thinking like, “What should I do?” There’s an interesting company called Intex and they develop this Cloud solution which is very Agile, very user friendly, and it covers lots of business processes as well, because accounting is about business processes. Without it, there’s no accounting.
And it also integrates with different solutions. Like, you have solutions on invoice issuing and collections. Actually there are not many solutions there, but it’s like a whole process there, basically quote-to-cash. Like, once you sold something, then you need to collect money. There are different platforms that are used to actually get you to issue those quotes and then sign the contract and then issue invoices and finally get the cash. There’s like a huge area which is being automated. There are a couple of companies working in that area and I actually met with the founder of one of them recently. A really interesting guy, maybe I’ll talk to you about him later for your podcast. Fantastic guy!
And then there are like other solutions which manage your expenses, your bills. So with the advent of APIs you can basically create your own stack. One of my alums, he’s a German guy who moved recently to Silicon Valley, and he’s an investor, like angel investment in several startups, and he was saying what’s now important is a finance manager who can create a stack of accounting solutions, like for early state startup, then for kind of later stage startup. Like, you have a pre-series A, then series A, B, C, and then an IPO. So when it’s IPO, kind of a different knowledge is required. But before that you should create your stack of applications.
Kirill: What’s a stack of applications?
Aziz: Okay, the stack of applications is basically a core application, accounts application, and then other applications which are connected to this application. So you have your QuickBooks, Intex, Zero, NetSuite. They are sort of your core stuff. And then you have your adapted insights FPNA, then you have your bill.com for bill payments or [indecipherable 52:32] for your kind of regular sourcing and logistics. And then you have Apttus, quote-to-cash procedures and it’s all been automated. It’s automated, yeah, and that’s called a stack.
Kirill: Okay, gotcha. So it’s a combination of software. That’s an interesting finance term. Okay, well, thanks for sharing that. That’s some great insights into the world of finance. I’m a bit cautious of time and I would like to move on to some rapid fire questions leading up to the end of the podcast. How does that sound?
Aziz: Sure.
Kirill: Okay, here we go. What’s the biggest challenge that you’ve ever faced that was related to data or data science?
Aziz: I didn’t have much experience with data, fortunately or unfortunately. So, if I’m going to answer your question, my challenge is dealing with numerous Excel spreadsheets. Excel is total anarchy, and so I need to transfer all types of information from there and it’s a total pain and that’s a challenge because everybody’s Excel is so dear to their heart and if you kind of criticize them, everyone is hurt.
Kirill: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of those similar answers on the podcast. Excel, yeah. There’s so many other tools that can be used. Alright, question number two: What is your most favourite thing about data and how it can or is changing your role that you’re in?
Aziz: I guess data is like a cold, hard truth in the majority of cases. So, yeah, the human brain is not designed to make rational decisions and data helps us to make those rational decisions.
Kirill: Yeah. It helps you be very rational. Great answer! I love it. And we’ve talked a little bit about this, but in a one sentence summary, where do you think the field of data is going in the space of finance, naturally, because that’s where your focus is. Where do you think this combination of fields of finance and data is going? What should our listeners prepare for in the future?
Aziz: I mean, where it goes to, it should be some kind of integrated solution which is easy to use and where you don’t have to learn Python or R or whatever. So I hope this solution will appear soon.
Kirill: And how do we prepare for that?
Aziz: We need to learn Python and we need to learn statistics and understand what it is. So, there’s no escape from hard skill.
Kirill: Yeah, that’s a great answer. Hard skills are always going to be important and they’re definitely worthwhile investing your time. So, thanks a lot, Aziz, for coming on the show. I think you shared some valuable insights and I’m really appreciative that we actually spoke a lot about your career. It’s a great way to learn how to build your own career, for our listeners, to dissect somebody’s journey that they’ve had through their career. And how can our listeners contact you or follow you or learn more about how your career progresses in the future? If they’d like to get in touch, what’s the best way to get in touch with you?
Aziz: LinkedIn is the best way.
Kirill: LinkedIn. Beautiful. Okay, we’ll leave the URL in the show notes. I have one final question for you: What is your one favourite book that can help our listeners become better data scientists or just better structure their careers in their journey through life?
Aziz: That one book is probably “Tools of Titans” by Tim Ferris. It basically summarizes all the life hacks which are fads and fashionable right now. You like some of them, you hate some of them, but at least you will know about that.
Kirill: That’s a really good summary. And have you read the book to the end yourself or are you going through it right now?
Aziz: No, I’m going through it right now.
Kirill: Yeah, I totally get it because I actually have—believe it or not, on the floor right next to me I have a box with five of these books and they’re massive. Tim Ferris’ books are usually quite big. These are huge! Be prepared, they weigh like half a kilo each. I bought five of them because it’s Tim Ferris and I’ve read most of his other books. I just bought them for presents for people who want to build careers and who are in business.
And it just came out, like a month ago, so thanks a lot for mentioning it. So, our listeners, if you haven’t read Tim Ferris, he’s the author of “The 4-Hour Workweek,” by the way. This is his brand new book so definitely check it out. Even without opening it, even without having opened it, I know that it’s got so much value in it right away because he interviewed all these people on his podcast and then summarized it in a book. So check it out.
Aziz: Yeah, if you’ll allow me, I’ll add something else. It’s like an encyclopaedia on food, on exercises, on productivity, whatever, so you can read some of the chapters and you don’t have to read it all. It’s not like a big story.
Kirill: Yeah, it’s like a glossary of stuff. And the title, again, is “Tools of Titans” and we’ll also leave a link on the show notes. Well, thank you very much again, Aziz. It was a pleasure having you on board on the podcast and I’m sure a lot of our listeners would have picked up quite a few great insights from your career and from things that you’ve shared today.
Aziz: Thanks a lot, Kirill. It was nice meeting you and I suggest that we contact again and you will see how something changed in my opinion.
Kirill: (Laughs) Yeah, for sure. It’s a very dynamic role. I’m sure things will change. I would love to have you on again. Alright, have a great day and take care. Thanks a lot.
Aziz: Alright, cheers. Bye.
Kirill: So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this discussion with Aziz Mamatov. It’s something different, something to spice up our podcast and not as techie, not as focused on data science this time, but more focused on career development and career progression and of course, how data science and data is disrupting the space of finance and what Aziz can see from his years and years of experience in that field.
My personal favourite part of this show was the way Aziz has structured his career, the mentality that he’s put onto his whole career. He has never been afraid to move on. He has never been afraid to experiment, to find new companies, to find new opportunities to travel the world. He’s lived in so many different countries where his career has taken him. He’s actively sought out very interesting opportunities, he’s leveraged his previous connections and I think a lot of us can learn from that. Even if you’re not looking to change your career, even if you’re not looking to move on, you can still find opportunities around you all the time, opportunities for other things like entrepreneurship, opportunities for maybe philanthropy, opportunities for helping the community, opportunities for having a part-time role in another business or freelancing and things like that. So the opportunities are all around us, it’s about opening our minds to them and I think that’s a very, very important part of building a career and a very important part of life overall in general as well.
So there we go. I hope you enjoyed today’s show. You can get the show notes at www.www.superdatascience.com/27. There you can also get the episode transcript as well as all of the materials that were mentioned in this episode and you can also find Aziz’s LinkedIn and follow him there. So don’t forget to hit him up and follow him. And while we’re on the topic of social media, connect with me on LinkedIn as well. I am always open to new connections and would love to get in touch. So you can find me on LinkedIn, just search for Kirill Eremenko and hit me up with a connection. I will always accept from a fellow data scientist. And I can’t wait to see you next time. Until then, happy analyzing.
