Jon Krohn: 00:00
This is episode number 515 with Chrys Wu, Product Consultant and Co-Founder of both Write/Speak/Code, and Hacks/Hackers.
Jon Krohn: 00:12
Welcome to the SuperDataScience Podcast. My name is Jon Krohn, chief data scientist and bestselling author on deep learning. Each week, we bring you inspiring people and ideas, to help you build a successful career in data science. Thanks for being here today and now let’s make the complex, simple
Jon Krohn: 00:42
Welcome back to the SuperDataScience podcast. Today’s episode is a first-ever for the program. The episode was recorded with me in person together with the guest. My brave guinea pig for this in-person recording experiment is the inspiring and thoughtful Chrys Wu. Chrys is a consultant who specializes in product development and change management. For example, she helps companies embrace new technologies in a way that it ensures employees are comfortable with the change, and that the employees benefit from it. She’s also a co-founder and active mentor in an organization called Write/Speak/Code, a group that promotes visibility and leadership of technologists from underrepresented genders. She’s also a founding organizer of an organization called Hacks/Hackers, which connects the journalism and software developer communities. She founded Hacks/Hackers 12 years ago, and it has now grown to 70 chapters across five continents.
Jon Krohn: 01:43
In today’s special in-person episode, Chrys enlightens us on K-pop music, its origins and its associated cultural movement. How the Write/Speak/Code and Hacks/Hackers organizations she co-founded, leveraged community to make a massive global impact for marginalized genders and journalism, respectively. How you too can either find or launch impactful communities that accelerate your career and the impact that you can make in the world. And Chrys talks about her top resources, including social media accounts, blogs, and podcasts for staying abreast of the latest in data science and machine learning, whether you’re a technical expert or not. Speaking of which, today’s episode overall should appeal to anyone looking to make an impact, regardless of whether you’re a technical expert or not. All right. Are you ready to experience the energy of this first ever live filmed episode? Let’s do it.
Jon Krohn: 02:48
Chrys, welcome to the SuperDataScience podcast. It’s so fun to be in-person with you filming. I understand you didn’t have too much of a commute to get here to film in my apartment, in these COVID conditions.
Chrys Wu: 03:00
No, it was just one long train ride right here. So it was great.
Jon Krohn: 03:04
Nice. All right. So we were introduced to each other by Claudia Perlich, who was on episode number 437, but we know each other through a number of different avenues. So, also Jared Lander, who was episode number 501 and Drew Conway, who was in episode number 511. So one of the big connections there, is that all of those people, including myself, are members of the Open Statistical Programming Community in New York, which you’ve been a part of for over a decade, I suppose. And so most recently we recorded a podcast episode at the R Conference, the New York R Conference, which is a spin-off I guess, of the Open Statistical Programming Community. And you did a talk at that same conference that we filmed the episode with Drew. So, the topic at that conference was why the world loves K-pop. So Chrys, tell us a bit about what K-pop is. I understand it’s from Korea, which is where the K comes from. I haven’t listened to too much of it. I know Gangnam Style.
Chrys Wu: 04:16
I think a lot of people know Gangnam Style by now.
Jon Krohn: 04:22
So tell us a bit about K-pop and why it’s so interesting to you and then we can get into your talk a bit as well.
Chrys Wu: 04:28
Well, I think K-pop is really fascinating for lots of different reasons, it started… So it’s a musical genre that originated in South Korea that was planned for as a cultural export. K-pop, people who’ve been studying it, mark the early 1990s, I think 1992 or 1993 as the beginning of K-pop as a genre. And then it just has grown from there. Because of YouTube being so open for people, folks from around the world could discover all sorts of musical artists. And then finally when Gangnam Style hit and I think… What was it? 2015 ish. That is when it went from something that pockets of folks listened to, to suddenly everyone’s like, “What is this?” And so given its history, the fact that it is something that was planned for by the government and the fact that it’s just so popular around the world, BTS being the number one selling musical group worldwide, I figured this is a great opportunity to look at data and other artifacts and study it through art.
Jon Krohn: 05:51
And then another interesting fact, I guess, about Asian music and something that surprised me… So prior to filming this episode, we talked about what could we cover on the show? And one of the things that blew my mind that you brought up to me was how few musical artists, at least that I get exposed to in places that I grew up, the US, Canada, the UK, there are very, very few Asian artists. I struggle to think of more than a handful.
Chrys Wu: 06:20
Exactly. I think it’s really hard to break in, in the west as a non-English speaking artist, just… I mean, obviously in the United States we have a huge community of people who love like Latin music or music that’s Spanish language. But that said, okay, what about the Asians? Right? Asia is huge and east Asia as well, just so many people, but you don’t really… nobody’s really hit the Billboard top 10 and stayed there for very long, let alone debuted at number one.
Jon Krohn: 07:04
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Jon Krohn: 08:34
So interesting topic, and it sounds like there’s opportunities to be analyzing some of these trends with data. Because it sounds like things are starting to change, that we are starting to see some Asian artists like BTS that you mentioned. You also recently mentioned to me an artist called Black Pink that I must admit, I didn’t know before, but shamefully, because they’re enormous. And so there’s this change and it looks like we can examine some of these trends that are happening in the data. So that’s what you talked about at the R Conference. Tell us about what you covered.
Chrys Wu: 09:10
So, I ended up thinking about four different areas of possible exploration. And of course this war is still huge, but one was looking at it just as a musical genre because it’s so fast growing. I think it’s the… Oh, I forget the letters, but it’s the international body that represents recording labels around the world. And they said that in 2020, a record breaking year for K-pop drove South Korea to 44.8% growth. And the position is the fastest growing major music producing market in of all of last year. So the second area that is worthy of data exploration, I thought might be the fact that it is an economic engine. So by that, I mean, it is a cultural export product and they… the numbers have been updated since I last looked, the south Korean music industry has produced an estimated $5 billion of export value that was in 2019.
Chrys Wu: 10:15
So that’s a ton, right? And it’s not just music itself, but a lot of these musical artists right there, they themselves are acting or showing up in broadcast. They are representatives for various life and lifestyle brands around the world. So, K-Pop’s popularity has ripple effects into other industries. And so, I thought maybe there’s a way that you can explore how that’s happening and do some network analysis. For example, a third dimension for study is social phenomenon. And by that, I mean a lot… It’s true in general, that fan engagement is the number one reason why any musical artist is successful. And in the case of K-pop fans, they’re super, super organized, they’re very… it’s almost like they operate like a collective, right? And so they’ll get together, and when they hear word that their favorite artist is coming out with a new release, they get together and figure out cooperatively how to make sure their favorite artist gets to number one.
Jon Krohn: 11:36
Oh, wow. I see. That’s interesting. That is an interesting social phenomenon.
Chrys Wu: 11:41
So not only are the fans organized for their favorite groups, they also organize for social and political causes. And so there is an add on effect in terms of the social phenomenon there. And I also want to mention it’s not just the fans, but the artists themselves are addressing all sorts of social, political, generational issues and questions in the music too.
Jon Krohn: 12:05
Very interesting. All right. Very cool. So it’s fast moving. Definitely some data we could track there. Cool idea around the network analysis of the economic engine and how the music industry ends up having ripple effects across other artistic and maybe even beyond artistic industries out of Asia and then… The cultural impact is the third one. So you’ve got one more, right?
Chrys Wu: 12:31
Yeah. And that one, I was thinking it’s almost like a bridge between what we think of as the east and the west. And in my talk, I spoke about it as being an east west connector. So this is looking at things like the fact that K-pop artists and non-Korean artists are aware of each other and maybe a little bit more on the South Korean artist side. But that said, you can see just by looking at Twitter alone or TikTok or Instagram, choose your favorite social media platform. And you can see they’re tagging each other and talking to each other. You’re also seeing them start to produce collaborations. And then I think the other interesting thing is the businesses that are supporting them also have, whether it’s the agencies or the labels, right. They have business agreements or investments in other labels and agencies around the world. And so you’re starting to see from the business side, how globalization is happening. So I think that that’s really interesting.
Jon Krohn: 13:43
So it sounds like all of this investment, this decision from the top down by the South Korean government to create this global K-pop industry is working and it is having big cultural impacts across the world, including here in the US. So, super cool, and definitely an interesting talk. So beyond your interest in K-pop, you also do other things with your day. So you are the co-founder and still a mentor of an organization called Write/Speak/Code. And so you co-founded that eight years ago, and this is a group that promotes marginalized genders in tech leadership. So tell us about Write/Speak/Code, what it does, why you founded it and maybe any impactful use cases that have happened. I’d love to hear about it.
Chrys Wu: 14:39
Well, like I said, Write/Speak/Code was founded to promote the visibility and leadership of technologists with marginalized genders. And it does that through peer-to-peer professional development. So when we first got started, there were five of us who co-founded it. I guess, the feeling at the time, it was just lots of really… You weren’t seeing many women, especially. We started out with our focus on women because the conversation around marginalized genders hadn’t really come to the forefront at that time. But women were not really being seen at meetup talks or giving conference talks or being the people who are the blogger to follow, or the medium poster to follow. So we figured why not… What if that was true because these people didn’t know how to get started. So the conference is really designed to help hand-hold people through that process-
Jon Krohn: 15:55
It’s a conference?
Chrys Wu: 15:58
We called it a conference, but it was very hands-on, so some people might call it a workshop.
Jon Krohn: 16:04
So, you mean the initial one, or it’s a recurring workshop?
Chrys Wu: 16:10
The pilot, the very first event was a conference, but the things that people were doing rather than being like ‘sage on the stage’, et cetera. It was very much hands-on, so it was in that sense much more like a workshop.
Jon Krohn: 16:24
Got it, got it. And then it’s continued today to be a peer-to-peer network. I imagine it’s continued through the pandemic, people working together remotely and that kind of thing?
Chrys Wu: 16:33
Yeah. It’s also [inaudible 00:16:35] because of the success of every year we’d been gathering together to do this. And because of the growth and the success of the program, it’s also spawned local meetups as well. So, there are a few alumns who have gone through the curriculum who were just like, “This is so exciting. I want to bring this back to my town, or my hometown”, and then start to bring this knowledge and the skill to other people.
Jon Krohn: 17:05
Cool. And so, to break it down a little bit more, the name of it, Write/Speak/Code is very deliberately… Those are the three main areas that this network helps with. So, you explained this to me earlier, but the ‘write’ part is helping people to get started on writing open source code, right?
Chrys Wu: 17:30
It’s more like thought leadership blogging or just prose writing. Prose writing with, or without code, depending on what you want to do.
Jon Krohn: 17:41
And then the ‘speak’ you kind of already alluded to, is speaking at conferences, helping people get started with that. And so that includes things like helping them be prepared to even apply.
Chrys Wu: 17:55
A lot of people and this is true in general are like, “I would love to give a talk at my local meetup. I’d love to give a talk at national international conference.” But they’re like, “I have no idea what to talk about.” And so we do help folks with idea generation and take them from that point of… Overall the underlying tagline of Write/Speak/Code has been ‘own your expertise’ and getting people to embrace their knowledge, regardless of where they are in the spectrum of experience and then to generate ideas based on what they know and what they feel confident about, even if the thing that they feel confident about is like, “I don’t actually know this thing, but I’ve been learning. And here’s my process of learning it.”
Jon Krohn: 18:52
Okay, cool. That makes a lot of sense to me. So, that’s the ‘write’, the ‘speak’, and then there is the ‘code’. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. I see. I see. So, the ‘write’ part is about writing blog posts, of course. And then the ‘speak’ part is about speaking at conferences and the ‘code’ part is about coding.
Chrys Wu: 19:11
That’s right. And that was… One of the biggest things that people may or may not acknowledge is that the technology that we use is powered by a lot of open source code and being that it’s open source, anybody can be a contributor. And by being a contributor shape the dynamic of what that code is capable of. So teaching folks, not just how to make your first pro request, but also teaching them… Because we’re looking at an underrepresented group of people… The technology culture can be a little squishy sometimes. Helping people figure out what are projects, how to evaluate what project or code base you could be contributing to in a way that can be educational and also accept or not, well, that’s the wrong word. But, if you’re going to make a pull request, that you’re going to be able to learn from it. And also that the interaction is going to be positive rather than negative.
Jon Krohn: 20:33
The use of the accepted there it’s that the pull request will go somewhere, I guess, or at least you learn from the experience and can iterate and improve.
Chrys Wu: 20:43
And also you have that you’re learning that the thing that you’re learning is how to improve the code, as opposed to you’re learning like, “Okay, that was the wrong place for me.”
Jon Krohn: 20:56
I’m always thinking when we’re going through these episodes, what are the kinds of words that a listener who doesn’t have expertise might be confused by? And so pull request is one of, I think it’s one of the funniest ones, because you’re trying to kind of… you’re pushing code. You’re adding code, you’re editing code in some larger code base, an open source project. It’s interesting that it’s called a pull request and… I think there’s a clear etymology there. I mean, so I guess you pull the code down, you have your own little version, you make some changes and then somebody approves that pull request that you made and it ends up being pushed.
Chrys Wu: 21:42
Yeah. I didn’t name it, I don’t know.
Jon Krohn: 21:47
But it’s one of those terms that if you work in software, you think about it, you hear it all the time, but it’s a funny one I think, when you try to break it down. All right. So, that’s cool. So that’s Write/Speak/Code. And there’s another organization that you founded that’s actually even older, that you founded in 2009. So at time of filming, we’re talking 12 years ago, and this is Hacks/Hackers. And I love the name because it combines together ‘hacks’, journalists and ‘hackers’, programmers. And so the organization helps bridge those two groups, right?
Chrys Wu: 22:28
That’s right. We’ve had a few different taglines over the years. Originally, it was rebooting the future of journalism. Now, I think it’s easier to talk about it as an organization that brings journalists and technologists together to explore the future of journalism and technology. So when we started in 2009, it was basically like, “The world is very, very different” then, and a lot of journalists were just starting to think about how you could really use the web and mobile apps to reach the readers. And there were a lot of technologists who were really interested in civic reporting, how the news as a medium can help to reshape policy and reshape the world around them both locally and globally. But they wanted to connect with journalists to learn the practice from them, as well as see how they could contribute their talents as well.
Jon Krohn: 23:37
Cool. And it’s a meaningful place to be able to apply your talents. I’m not going to be able to dig up off the cuff exactly the episode number, but there’s a great episode, not too long ago, maybe a couple of months ago with Angelish Srivastava. And so she got started in data science through an interest in journalism. So she was a high school journalist and just described the same kind of arc that you’re describing probably many professional journalists experience in 2009 was, “Hey, wow. I can use data for assisting my reporting. Tables of results can be really interesting for readers and make a story quite tangible. And then of course, the data visualizations can be really helpful as well.” And we’re seeing more and more and more newspapers having amazing visualizations for their online publications like the New York Times, they must have dozens and dozens. I don’t even… Maybe you have some idea of the number of people who are just experts in data visualization over there.
Chrys Wu: 24:39
It’s a lot. But I mean, speaking specifically about data visualization and journalism, there’s actually a long history that predates the internet and there’s a bunch of talks online that you can watch or read about, to learn.
Jon Krohn: 24:57
Ah, cool. I mean, it’s an interesting thing… I mean, I had this experience in elementary school of… I grew up in Toronto in Canada and I can’t remember the names of anything now, but from my school, we were able to walk in downtown Toronto, a city block, and there was this old school printing press on the corner. And so they had all the equipment there still available and you could see how they did things. And so a century ago, every page of the newspaper, you had to hand configure letters in a machine upside down and those reversed letters in this machine, they could get wet with ink and then press against a page and you’d have newspaper pages. And so you just alluded to there, this change, at that time a century ago, presumably illustrations would be very difficult if impossible to have in that kind of format. But over time, I imagine decade over decade, you get more and more graphics, color graphics and amazing data visualizations and newsprint that predate the internet. It’s cool. All right. So Hacks/Hackers, it’s grown pretty big. So from its founding 12 years ago, just a few of you, I imagine, maybe based in New York?
Chrys Wu: 26:17
Where were we? We were kind of, oh my gosh.
Jon Krohn: 26:19
Distributed?
Chrys Wu: 26:20
We were kind of distributed. There were pockets of us, primarily all over the US, there was also a group in London as well.
Jon Krohn: 26:29
Right. And I understand that that London group is particularly prominent globally, but there are 70 chapters on five continents worldwide now.
Chrys Wu: 26:37
That’s right. Things have really proliferated and of course, times have changed and the needs of the local organization that have changed. So I think the interesting thing about being a part of an organization or a movement that’s been around for any length of time is to see how it morphs in response to the world around them, the current events and the needs, and just what people are interested in.
Jon Krohn: 27:13
Very cool. So, two hugely impactful organizations that you co-founded, Write/Speak/Code and Hacks/Hackers. So it sounds like a common thread for you in your career has been developing communities. And I’ve spoken on previous podcasts, including on number 511 with Drew Conway and number 501 with Jared Lander in detail about how useful communities in New York have been for me, for learning about open-source software, for being able to speak. And for being able to find like-minded people to work with me on learning about deep learning or learning about a programming language. And so it sounds clear that that would resonate with you. Do you have tips for how people could find their own communities? So find people with common interests, how maybe if those people aren’t around, how they could get started themselves. You haven’t had any trouble getting organizations off the ground that have grown into massive international movements. Tell us about that. What are your tips?
Chrys Wu: 28:25
Well, you could start either online and then go narrow, or you could start local and go big. So whatever works best for you. And I think that if you wanted to start… These days, because social distance, isn’t saying it’s still kind of a thing and meetups are kind of… so looking online I think is probably the best place to start. And Google is your friend, right? And so is Twitter. Particularly for data science. Data science Twitter is super, super active still. If you’re the kind of person who likes to search via hashtag the data science hashtag is very, very active. Of course, you’re going to have to do a little wheat and chaff filtering.
Chrys Wu: 29:12
But also there’s a few groups I wanted to highlight for folks. Towards data science is a really great website where you can find lots to learn from. There’s also a community of folks who are in the Towards Data Science world. So there’s a website as well as a Twitter handle. And then there’s also the R for Data Science learning community, which sprung from the book. I think it was R for Data Science, which was written by Hadley Wickham. And I forget the co-author’s name. I’m sorry.
Jon Krohn: 29:53
We’ll find it. We’ll get it in the show notes. Okay.
Chrys Wu: 29:57
Okay. Their handle is R4DS on Twitter. And again, a terrific learning community has grown from people being interested in the book and then recognizing that you get a lot farther when you have other people to learn from.
Jon Krohn: 30:16
Totally. Couldn’t agree more. Those are great recommendations. I love both Towards Data Science and the R for Data Science communities, brilliant suggestions for listeners out there. Do you have a podcast recommendation for us?
Chrys Wu: 30:34
There’s a few. So in terms of learning online for me, because I’m not a practitioner, I listened to just be like, “Okay, what are people doing? And what’s kind of new out there?” My absolute favorite podcast seems to be coming back to life, which I’m very, very grateful for. And it’s called Talking Machines. Have you heard it?
Jon Krohn: 30:54
I have heard it, and I like it. I actually, I must’ve listened to Talking Machines years ago before I ever dreamed of having a podcast that I’m hosting myself. And, I think it’s a great podcast. Tell us a bit more about it.
Chrys Wu: 31:08
So the two hosts whose names I can’t remember, I’m sorry, but there’s a woman and there’s a man and the woman as the co-founder, she knows a great deal. She’s kind of like me. She’s really interested, she knows a great deal about it, but she’s not a day-to-day practitioner. And so when she interviews people, she’s always getting fantastic guests, but when she interviews people, she not only can ask them about very, very specific things, but also approach the subject with questions that are from the beginner’s mind approach. And then the male host Neil, oh goodness. He is a professor at Cambridge. And I think also might’ve been one of the founder or the lead scientist at DeepMind. So, this is not only a practitioner, but this is one of the people who’s sort of at the leading edge of research and application that’s being done in machine learning.
Jon Krohn: 32:15
It sounds like a great combination who are there talking about machines on the Talking Machines Podcast. It makes a lot of sense to have that deep expert combined with somebody who can say, “What’s the big picture here? Where’s this leading?” I love that. All right. So Chrys, we’ve got your blog recommendations, your Twitter recommendations, your podcast recommendations. How about a book recommendation for us?
Chrys Wu: 32:43
Okay. I’m going to give you two. So, a really fascinating speculative fiction book I’ve been reading is called Vagabonds and it’s by an author named, let’s see, Hao Jingfang. Yes. Hao Jingfang, with no tones. It’s from the Chinese science fiction world. And it’s really hard to explain, but I think what I took away from it is how two very different cultures look at each other and try to understand each other.
Jon Krohn: 33:29
Sounds useful in the world we’re in today where we have, whether it’s at a national level or an international level. Certainly different cultures looking at each other in different ways. Very cool. So that’s your fiction recommendation.
Chrys Wu: 33:45
And the nonfiction recommendation would be a book called Until Proven Safe, the subtitle is The History and Future of Quarantine. It’s very, very timely. It just came out in July and it’s by two writers, they’re a husband and wife couple, Geoff Manaugh and Nicola Twilley. And I’ve met Nicola a few times over the years. And just as a journalist, she is one of the most fascinating researchers who can also tell incredible, deeply researched stories. And then Geoff runs, I think he still runs a website called build blog. So if you’re interested in architecture and like the stories behind architecture, that’s a great place to go. They talk about quarantine and it’s just fascinating.
Jon Krohn: 34:40
Interesting. Definitely a hot topic as well. Very cool. Well, it’s clear Chrys, from the time that we’ve had together talking today that you know a ton about data science, software development communities, and how to grow them, how to foster them, and they then become these big international movements. So if people have questions for you or they’d like to follow you and learn more, as your career continues to develop, how should they do that?
Chrys Wu: 35:13
The best way is to find me on LinkedIn, which seems to be the place where all of the data science people are. But feel free to get in touch.
Jon Krohn: 35:24
Perfect. All right. We’ll be sure to have that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Chrys, for being the guest on this episode and for being open to having the first ever live filmed episode together with a guest of SuperDataScience, it’s been a really nice experience. Thank you so much.
Chrys Wu: 35:41
Thank you, Jon. It’s been fun.
Jon Krohn: 35:49
It was super cool today to have the experience of filming an episode in person with a guest this episode with Chrys paves the way for post-pandemic episodes that are filmed, not only in person with the guest, but in front of a live audience as well. It’s going to be fun. In today’s first ever in-person episode, Chrys filled us in on how the K-pop music genre was deliberately created and funded by the South Korean government, and it has had a remarkable ripple effect across industries and across the world. Chrys talked about how her Write/Speak/Code organization helps underrepresented genders in the tech industries to write public articles, speak to large audiences and code for open-source projects. She talked about how her Hacks/Hackers organization has helped bring large scale data and data visualization to journalism. She talked about how you too can either find communities to get involved with or found them yourself.
Jon Krohn: 36:46
And she left us with her favorite resources for keeping on top of the latest in data science, including the Towards Data Science blog, the R4DS online learning community and the Talking Machines podcast. You can get all the show notes, including the transcript for this episode, the fun in-person video recording, any materials mentioned on the show, the URLs for Chrys’s LinkedIn, as well as my own social media profiles at www.superdatascience.com/515, that’s www.superdatascience.com/515. If you enjoyed this episode, I’d of course greatly appreciate it if you left a review on your favorite podcasting app or on the SuperDataScience YouTube channel. I also encourage you to let me know your thoughts on this episode directly by adding me on LinkedIn or Twitter, and then tagging me in a post about it. Since this is a free podcast, if you’re looking for a free way to help me out, I’d be very grateful if you left a rating of my book Deep Learning Illustrated on Amazon or Goodreads, give some videos on my personal Jon Krohn YouTube channel a thumbs up or subscribe to my free, spam-free and content-rich newsletter on jonkrohn.com.
Jon Krohn: 37:58
To support the SuperDataScience company that kindly funds the management, editing, and production of this podcast without any annoying third-party ads, you could consider creating a free login to their learning platform on www.superdatascience.com. Check out the 99 days to your first data science job challenge at www.superdatascience.com/challenge or consider buying a usually pretty darn cheap Udemy course published by Ligency, a SuperDataScience affiliate such as my own mathematical foundations of machine learning course. All right, thanks to Ivana, Jaime, Mario and JP on the SuperDataScience team for being open to trying this new filmed in-person format and producing this special episode today. Keep on rocking out there folks, and I’m looking forward to another round of the SuperDataScience Podcast with you very soon.
